A Prius is probably a better car for more people than most BMWs, regardless of price.
"Why wealthy families are always wasting money on these colleges while middle class says there is no real benefit of attending these schools? It’s a consensus they are good and free for poor but doesn’t matter for others. "
Pretty much disagree with the entire premise.
“wealthy families are always wasting money on these colleges…” Are some wasting money? Sure, met more than a few thick-as-a-brick legacies, but also met kids from some of the wealthiest families in the world who worked their butts off and were superb students.
“middle class says there is no real benefit” Think that’s sour grapes speaking.
Son went to a public HS where about 30-40% of the students enroll in IVYs, MIT, Stanford, UChicago, etc, and probably close to 50% in T20s. In other words a school where everyone who does well (avg SAT was 2230/2400 a few years back) thinks they have a pretty good shot at getting in to an elite college.
Roughly 20% low income, 70% middle income, 10% wealthy. I don’t think that a single one of the middle income parents would agree with the statement that the “middle class says there is no real benefit”
As to the last point: “It’s a consensus they are good and free for poor but doesn’t matter for others.” The unanimous reaction at my son’s former HS would be: #the kind of thing a parent who’s kid had no chance at all of getting in might say if they were particularly bitter.
“It’s a consensus they are good and free for poor but doesn’t matter for others.”
It’s more nuanced than that. It matters for some fields, not for others, but regardless, someone from a high-SES background (upper-middle-class or above; basically anyone who would be full-pay at an Ivy/equivalent) who is smart and driven will do well regardless of where they go.
“The unanimous reaction at my son’s former HS would be: #the kind of thing a parent who’s kid had no chance at all of getting in might say if they were particularly bitter.”
Yes, we all thought that when we were 17 (and I also went to a public HS which sent close to 50% to top-20 colleges; he might be a fellow alum) but I’m not going to look to 17 year-olds (including 17 year-old me) for perspective and wisdom.
20 years hence, he’ll realize that his HS and grad school will have mattered more.*
- Well, caveat: That's my experience, and I attended an Ivy-equivalent. A good friend of mine who attended a similar public magnet doesn't have the same kind of fond memories of his HS, though he said the rigor there made the top public he attended seem really easy. He would say that the grad school he attended mattered most.
We are one of those middle class families that have saved since we got married with a couple priorities: our retirement and our D’s higher education. She attended public school all 12 years and now is attending a top 20 college.
As some people have stated, at such highly selective institution, she is surrounded by diverse, smart peers and interesting faculty members. She is a sophomore and has already received a scholarship to spend two weeks overseas last winter and another scholarship to a 7 week, specialiized language program this summer in another state. She may not have had these opportunities if she were at another school.
So far, we think it has been really worth it for her and for us. I do not think comparing paying for education is the same thing as buying a car (even an expensive one) or a piece of expensive clothing. Education stays with us for the rest of our lives. Those cars and clothes? Not that long.
Around Christmas time there was a rumour Sasha Obama wants to attend U Michigan, did they announce which one they finally picked? I asked as I read about her tennis coach’s involvement in university fraud scandal. Obviously her family doesn’t need hooks or bribes to get her enrolled in any school.
It would be inspirational if they walked the talk and sent her to UMich.
“ I challenge the premise that only rich people want to send their children to top schools. For the reasons I listed above, the value of a top education is prized by many, including some of the poorest recent immigrants, middle class people, etc. I myself am a public school teacher and administrator, married to someone who earns less than I do— I am not a “plutocrat.” There are whole cultures that believe in the value of education above all else, and many families from outside those cultures that do the same.”
@TheGreyKing I wholeheartedly agree. Funny, I am also a public school teacher and I feel exactly the same way. I don’t care about the idea of a school being “elite” so much as I would love to have my kids in an environment where they are surrounded by driven, intelligent, curious, passionate learners in a diverse setting. That is very important to me. I live in a city in the Midwest where a lot of students end up going to one of a handful of colleges in the state. The make up of these colleges are very similar to what their high schools are like, and in a sense college ends up being just an extension of high school. I went to a college like this, and I don’t feel that I grew a whole lot during those years. I wish I had been exposed to more of a variety of people and perspectives in college and that I had traveled more. I guess as parents we always want better for our children. I certainly enjoyed college, but it didn’t necessarily challenge me.
So I also challenge the notion that desire to send one’s children to an elite college is always wrapped up in prestige. Our family could care less about what kind of car we drive, but education is something we have always valued and have made sacrifices (fancy vacations etc.) for it. That said, there is a limit as to what we can and will sacrifice… my eldest was very close to attending an honors college on a national merit scholarship, and had a reasonable financial aid/merit aid offer not come through she would be there today. But to us it’s worth trying… worth giving it your best shot, and if it doesn’t work out on the end, like anything in life, you make the best with what you are given and hopefully bloom where you are planted.
The benefits of an elite education are obvious.
The silliness on CC is around the definition of elite.
-If you go to a top 5 it’s that.
-If it’s hpysm is that.
-It is top whatever lac it’s that.
-Is it t20 or t100.
-Is it this or that.
We are spoiled in so many ways. We have an embarrassment of riches from an educational perspective. The other nations of the world count in the single digits or zero the schools that would compare to the USA and Canada - we have hundreds.
The sheer volume of choice and excellence in terms of courses, scholars, facilities, sports classmates, internships, gyms and student support, activities, clubs is staggering if we take a look. We send over 2mm kids a year to college. It’s amazing.
Instead of supporting each other and feeling blessed, let’s have knife fights to make sure everyone knows where we stand in the pecking order.
It’s a strange thing that we want to constantly make sure that we stack rank and compare. And defend it to the end. Your loss is my gain. And there is a perverse satisfaction and desire to make others recognize the obvious superiority of me and my progeny. If you weren’t sure of it. Just bask in the glory of my bumper stickers as you follow me to work in the morning.
Alas.
And for those who have scrimped and saved for school because it mattered to you. Congrats. Honestly.
But when people say don’t judge me for spending that money on expensive colleges because we did x - while you suggest others frivolously frittered away their child’s future and and then had to go to state school, sounds a little judgy to me actually.
It’s not always that black and white.
I’d click 10 “likes” if I could, @privatebanker.
The issue for some is placing their offspring in a place that will allow him/her to rub elbows with the rich/ famous. And for some people, that’s what college is about-the social climbing & receiving the degree.
@PurpleTitan Lol.
@lostaccount:
“The issue for some is placing their offspring in a place that will allow him/her to rub elbows with the rich/ famous. And for some people, that’s what college is about-the social climbing & receiving the degree.”
I mean. It doesn’t really work that way. Back in college, I lived in a dorm with the son of (I later found out, years after graduation, when I put two and two together) a titan in the financial world. The son was really cool. Just a friendly all-around good guy. But he had zero interest in introducing people to his dad or making connections.
And it wasn’t like me with my Pell Grant was going to jet off to St. Bart’s to vacation with them.
No, what matters is the education. And making friends with smart driven kids who will go on to do great things.
You make your own status.
@purpletitan, of course I know it does not work that way. I thought that the OP was thinking about the Huffman (??) and whoever (with the lawyer who didn’t get what Singer meant by academy) scandal and why those people would want an elite college for their kids when they already were so wealthy. What did it matter? So my response is that those kind aren’t thinking academics when they choose schools. I don’t believe there are that many of those sorts but that was what I was referencing. And yeah, status…worthless.
I wish CC had a place to “badge” top replies. I would nominate @privatebanker post #46
@lostaccount: I’m quite certain those people weren’t cheating to rub shoulders with the rich and famous.
- They already rub shoulders with the rich and famous.
- They already marry the rich and famous.
- They already are rich and famous.
Nah, it’s more due to parental bragging rights and insecurity. My guess is that they were bad parents and felt guilty about it.
I’ve got to respectfully disagree with @privatebanker on a couple points. I don’t see a lot of ‘your loss is my gain’, in my community, nor do I see the ‘perverse satisfaction’ to make others see the superiority of certain kids. My experience was we’re all in this together, let’s share information and support each other and root for good outcomes for all.
I think it is threefold in terms of the why. 1) The Ivy’s have always been considered a first class education for generations with many famous graduates in our nation’s history. 2) Exclusitivity - Many people are impressed by the name and it suggests the person is extremely intelligent. Everyone knows Harvard. 3). It’s the connections ( real or perceived) you make there. Although I think it is much less so today than generations ago. There are countless bright students at all kinds of schools and the world is a much bigger place with far more companies with graduates from all over.
@wisteria100 It’s not everyone. And many people come here with the intention of helping.
However, there exists a hint of toxic elitism, so incredibly unhealthy, that permeates these threads.
My hope is that a cohort of parents with experience and no ax to grind, can start to create a new environment here on CC.
One that is open to students of all types and not just those with hpysm type dreams.
A place for all to come here and feel welcome. To me, that serves much more social utility than another Pomona or Princeton dilemma/validation thread.
@RW1 my daughter at her state school literally has lost count of her friends who are presenting their research and posters just like your student. And then from personal experience just from people I know who also have students at state schools I can list many who are presenting this spring.
Why on earth would you think that doing research as an undergrad and presenting the poster where peers can see the poster is an experience that can only be found at an elite school?
@carachel2 What you describe is exactly what I meant to convey in a few of my recent posts.
Of course students are doing this type of work at great public unis.
Posters have exposure to no more than one or two schools directly (years ago) and few schools vicariously through our children. How can posters state the unknowable as known. It’s hyperbole.
This misinformation, especially when couched in superiority, is especially misleading to prospective students and their parents.