<p>"Perhaps swayed by statistics about the shortage (and correspondingly high wages) of engineers and scientists in the United States, in the last decade nearly one incoming freshman in 10 have said they expected to major in engineering. (Over all, about a third of incoming freshmen said they planned to major in any of the science and engineering fields.)</p>
<p>But the share who actually complete degrees in engineering has been about half that. Certain demographic groups planning to major in the natural sciences also had relatively high dropout rates."</p>
<p>My son is a Senior in Engineering (Mechanical ) I think Eng. Is a very rigorous major that doesn’t allow a lot of partying . He has only gotten 1 B in 4 years in a literary course . Many students are not prepared for the courseload ,and want something easier and less stressful,IMO .</p>
<p>In addition to the academic rigor and heavy workload of engineering, there is the problem that many students who start an engineering major don’t know what engineering really is. They know only that “it’s a major for people who like science and math, and when you graduate, you can get a good job.”</p>
<p>When they actually get involved in engineering, they may discover that they don’t like it after all.</p>
<p>It’s my opinion that engineers are born … not made. Unfortunately there’s no genetic test for “prefers calculus and DiffEq to easier coursework, willing to work a lifetime in a job with limited policy involvement, and accepting that hotties won’t date them.”</p>
<p>(Did I get that last part right … or is my family of engineers just exceptionally ugly and dull?)</p>
<p>Most students going into engineering - and sad to say, many graduates - don’t have the “spark”. Somehow engineering is shown as a ‘superhero’ profession where people can do miracles with duct tape and a few Radio Shack parts. Combine this with money potential and it’s no wonder why people flock to engineering.</p>
<p>In practice, a lot of engineering is all about looking for problems and coming up with solutions, with little glamor. Another lot of engineering is about being able to lock one’s creativity away and follow the regulations / rules / codes / etc; yet another is involved about studying - in minute detail - extremely boring stuff that would bring most people to tears and about finding ways to improve them. Yet another involves taking someone else’s expensive prototype and finding ways to build it for $19.95.</p>
<p>The trick is to find your niche early on and excel in it. The field is way too broad for anyone to learn even narrow disciplines fully… Most kids that get into ‘engineering’ don’t know all these things, and unfortunately, the fun stuff in engineering comes in year 3, after the usual weed-out classes.</p>
<p>I somehow feel that architecture programs do a better job of presenting stuff so that even first or second semester students can see from week 1 what is involved. The long hours, the studying, the lack of social life, etc. are typical in both engineering and architecture, but it’s not easy to study like crazy for two years and all the ‘engineering’ courses you’ll have seen by then amount to what, 3-4 courses total including Hello World Introduction to Engineering in 1st semester and a couple of 200-level course in Digital Electronics by mid sophomore year…</p>
<p>I realize there’s a prerequisite sequence to follow here, but I can’t help but wonder if pushing some weed out classes till junior year and bringing more courses representative of engineering early on, the students would know much sooner what it’s all about…</p>
<p>Another approach would be a 5-year engineering degree; I don’t think a BSEE is any easier than a BArch, yet the BSEE is 4 years and the BArch is 5. Many countries outside the US have such 5 year engineering programs where one graduates with a BS+MS.</p>
<p>What is interesting is that, across all majors, the amount of time spent studying has gone down considerably.</p>
<p>1961 most study time (health majors): ~30 hours per week
1961 least study time (business majors): ~22.5 hours per week
2003 most study time (engineering majors): 18.5 hours per week
2003 least study time (business majors): ~13.5 hours per week</p>
<p>Note that it is typical for each credit unit of course work to come with one hour of class time per week*, with the assumption that the student does two additional hours of work per week outside of class. So a normal 15 credit unit course load would mean about 15 hours in class plus 30 hours out of class per week, which makes theoretical sense for a “full time” student. But it seems that, with out of class time being from about 13.5 to 18.5 hours per week, a normal 15 credit unit course load really takes about 28.5 to 33.5 hours per week total.</p>
<ul>
<li>However, courses with labs often tend to have more class time per week than that, due to lab time.</li>
</ul>
<p>Apparently, so, NewHope. Engineer sons are both tall and handsome. The older one in particular tends to get looks from the young women all the time. Has never had a problem attracting women and was one of the best looking guys in his high school class. Not socially awkward either but these stereotypes die hard and ,maybe some kids do think it might not be cool to be an engineer. At my mothers’ viewing at the funeral home last year, all the middle aged ladies kept coming up to them and telling them how tall and handsome they were.It was hilarious to my sister and me(at a very trying time).
Husband (and his dad) also engineers so I do agree with you that many engineers tend to be born,not made.</p>
<p>I wonder how much of the decrease in time spent studying between 1961 and 2003 is due to the internet? Whereas I used to page through my coffee stained texts and lurk in the stacks at the library my DD finds answers to her questions with an instant visit to Wiki or Google. And kids these days are high performance studiers, a skill honed in multiple AP classes.</p>
<p>I agree that success in science and engineering has more to do with aptitude than time spent studying. Exams in upper division courses incorporate intuition as much as knowledge, something that is difficult to teach. The saddest people I knew in college were the ones whose parents were forcing them to stay in an engineering or pre-med program despite their desire and aptitude for other disciplines.</p>
<p>How much could engineers potentially make? They may start out with a higher salary, but then they end up getting their 5% raise/year. Medical school is hard, same with law school, but why do so many people stick it out? Engineering is hard work with low return.</p>
<p>oldfort, I believe plenty of undergrads in premed drop out too.The ones that make it through and get into medical school have really excelled in undergrad. They have already gotten through one hurdle and are the best of the bunch in getting to med school to begin with. They then have 4 years of med school and residency . Engineers can be employed directly out of undergrad. I do disagree with your comment that engineering is hard work with low return. Engineers are well paid in the scheme of things and in general, don’t tend to be as concerned about making lots of money or with prestige as some other professions seem to be. There are other returns in life beyond monetary ones.</p>
<p>But we are not worried about not having enough doctors or lawyers.</p>
<p>I would have to disagree with you that engineers tend not to be as concerned about lots of money, it is the precise reason why so many of them want to be engineers, except they are misguided. They see the high starting salary and they think they will continue to make higher than average salary.</p>
<p>well, I think most engineers want to make good money out of college and they do. The information is certainly out there about average mid career salaries for people. I don’t think it’s a secret to anybody that kids that really want to make the big bucks are probably not going to make it in engineering. In general,there are more lucrative professions. Lots of kids don’t make it through engineering because it’s just so hard and they struggle with the initial courses. Same as lots of premed kids not making it through some of the tough courses.</p>
<p>Engineering colleges compensate for their course difficulties with a lower gpa where students lose scholarships or are put on probation. Engineering programs in general universities can’t do that. Students in these programs leave enginering so they can graduate college.</p>
<p>“But we are not worried about not having enough doctors”
Um yeah , some are… there is a critical shortage of new Ped’s, GP’s and Internists coming out of Med schools these days vrs highly paid specialists. Add that to the aging population and the fact that fewer and fewer DRs are willing to take new Medicare patients and you have a real shortage of the Drs that patients usually need to see first when illness strikes.</p>
<p>menloparkmom just posted what I was about to say about a shortage of doctors. Some of that shortage has been taken up by foreign born physicians.
If anything,with lawyers, there seems to be a glut of them recently. Kids that are graduating from college and can’t get a job are sometimes going to law school. The bar doesn’t seem all that high for some of the lower tier law schools.</p>
<p>Another reason why a lot of friends who graduated as engineering majors end up leaving the profession is being fed up with being stuck at the bottom of the corporate hierarchy* where all decisions…even technically related ones are often made by MBAs or non-techies whom they feel don’t have a real understanding of the technical issues/considerations that they felt are downplayed/overlooked. Most of them end up changing careers…patent/IP law and business management are two popular second-career tracks from what I’ve seen. </p>
<p>Then again, if money is their only motivation for entering the engineering/techie field…then the vast majority would end up being weeded out like most aspiring pre-meds with such motivations…whether in college or career. You really need to have some passion and the grit to put up with the demands for such majors/careers…whether it is academic or social. </p>
<ul>
<li>Exceptions are engineering/CS/technology firms where engineers/techies are placed in leadership/key decisionmaking roles. A reason why most engineering/CS graduates I’ve known scramble to land engineering/techie jobs in those companies over working the same positions in the rest of corporate America even if the pay is much higher at the latter.</li>
</ul>
<p>
</p>
<p>There’s practically no effective bar beyond being able to pay/take out loans for $200K+, graduating with at least a 2.x+ GPA, and scoring slightly above the 40th-50th percentile on the LSAT. </p>
<p>Then again, I’ve heard that lower-tiered law schools…especially those in the 3-4th tiers…were bad bets years before the 2008 economic downturn. </p>
<p>Know a few law school grads who regretted turning down first tier law schools like BC and BU law…and they graduated in the top 5-10% of their respective classes. No matter…they’re still unemployed 3 years after graduation and on the hock for $200K+ in law school loans. </p>
<p>Heck…I know one friend who has nearly $400K combined undergrad/law school loan debts*…and he’s lucky. At least he has a legal job…making $30k/year.</p>
<ul>
<li>And he attended a decent second-tier law school.</li>
</ul>
<p>Exactly. They are not getting paid enough, so most medical students want to become specialists. Those generalist are getting paid $80/visit, whereas those specialist are getting paid $200+/visit, and some of them could even demand not to participate in any insurance. It is all about money, supply and demand.</p>
<p>Isn’t any law school but a top 14 law school, or a slightly lower ranked law school if one is seeking a job in its region, a path that is risky in terms of post graduation job prospects relative to cost/debt of attending?</p>
<p>True, but everyone wants the sexy R&D jobs and manufacturing is often overlooked, what with outsourcing and all that. It takes a special mindset to do just that (I chuckle every time I see our Bill-Of-Materials and see charges for ‘wire: $0.00045’ for a 1 inch piece of wire that the designers can eliminate during the next board redesign…).</p>