My daughter is looking at many (safety) schools where her stats are significantly above the range of accepted students. The hope is that there will be some merit aid in those situations.
How can we find out how rigorous the classes are and generally how much the other students care about academics, before investing time and money in the application process? She wants to be challenged by her classes and to be among other students who want to work hard (but also have fun) and is wondering if a school where she would be in the top % of students will meet those requirements.
We don’t know any current students and certainly don’t want to offend anyone at the school by suggesting that the classes may be easy for her.
Do the safety schools have Honors Programs? That would be a good start. Some schools will have Honors-specific info sessions as well. If not, the Honors website is a good place to start to gauge how many students, curriculum, etc.
Another thing your daughter can do once she gets her acceptances and financial aid info she can do a night over at the school. Most will hook her up with another student with a similar major and she can shadow her to classes etc
That helped very much for my oldest daughter.
look at size of school. Larger schools tend to have students on both ends of the spectrum. How many are in that top 25% group? You can even drill down to major - some majors, like engineering, tend to have higher stat kids.
Does the school have an Honors College within it? If yes, contact them directly and ask about stats of those accepted, types of classes or opportunities available.
Do professors conduct research and need undergrad aid with the research? IMHO, you can learn just as much this way was in a course.
Google school name and "syllabus" or "syllabi." You may be surprised how many are open to public viewing.
Review RATE MY PROFESSOR. Remember, this site often is filled with students who struggled with a Professor, but the comments can sometimes be telling.
What opportunities does the school offer? Are Employers recruiting for internships and co-ops?
Look at the study abroad and exchange study. Some colleges offer you to do a semester at a Partner school within the continental U.S.
Just because her stats are above average at some schools, does not guarantee she will get merit. Some schools simply don’t have the budget. So choose the safety schools wisely.
Run the NPC. Look at scholarships available at each individual school. Google the Common Data Set for each school.
My oldest graduated high school 2013. He apply to at least a dozen colleges. He is attending one of his safety schools, University of Alabama. The money was a factor, but the school also offered nicer facilities than some of his match schools and offered multiple programs (research as a freshman; study abroad short-term programs; co-op; ability to dual major) which appealed to him. He has been challenged and found many students who challenge him in and out of the classroom.
You also need to consider how the other schools address your students major. For example a school may be a safety but have an excellent music degree program while having average engineering programs. Safety schools can have rigorous programs.
If possible I would see if she can arrange to attend some classes at schools that turn out to be her top choice so she can get a sense of the academics.
And if she gets into any honors programs, they are certainly worth looking into – just be aware that honors programs vary greatly in terms of what they offer from one school to another so each opportunity would have to be looked individually.
In addition try to find out if there are opportunities on campus to do research with professors, independent study research,an honors thesis, internships, or other things that she may find stimulating.
And she will not be alone – many students seek out schools where they can qualify for merit aid. I have posted this link before, but you may find it a good read – about a student attending her safety school. http://www.thecollegiateblog.org/2013/07/24/student-stories/
If the schools’ departments of her subjects of academic interest put course materials (syllabus, old exams, etc.) on their web sites, and you know someone familiar with the subject matter of those subjects, you may want to ask that person to compare the courses in those subject across the schools.
My D1 attended one of her safeties. They offered nice merit, were solid in her major, and she liked it as well as her higher ranked acceptances. She is a kid who will get the most out of any situation, though (D2, not as much, needs to be pushed). D1 graduated Phi Beta Kappa, had a great experience, was quite challenged at times (especially with her senior thesis), made a lot of good friends, and got an excellent job after graduating.
Your concern is a valid one. Classes tend to be normed down to the level of students, and peer pressure plays a role too. You don’t want to be the only kid willing to participate in the weekly discussion section many large classes have, the one that did all the assigned reading, the one sticking with the homework until its done.
A friend spent a year at a decently regarded Cal-State school. In a Physics class after a few weeks a kid raised his hand and said the homework was taking him more than 3 hours a week, too much he felt. Concerned, the prof asked how many others felt it was too much. The majority raised their hands, and the homework was cut. This simply wouldn’t happen at a UC, nor I suspect at many other colleges.
Thank you for all of the above comments. They were very helpful.
Yes one school has an honors college that we think would be a good fit, although the school won’t divulge stats of students in the honors program, only to say roughly those top 15% of the class.
@longhaul, good point that a larger school has more students on both ends of the spectrum.
I hadn’t thought about independent study or thesis requirements so those are good things to consider.
Almost every school we visit promotes the opportunity to do research so we will have to ask more pointed questions about how competitive these positions are.
D is in the top 15% at her school. Some general classes she found slow and boring. Her Honors classes have kept her challenged. In her Honors program, Honors classes are capped at 15 students, and she’s had classes with as few as 9. She thrives on interactive small-group seminar type classes, so this is perfect for her. Honors has also provided many opportunities both on and off campus to enhance her education.
She’s also been able to do research, has been awarded summer research grants, is working on a thesis, and taking some courses that have grad students in with undergrads, which raises the level.
Someone above mentioned Phi Beta Kappa - you’ve got a better shot at that if you’re at the top of the student body, and it sure is an accomplishment if obtained.
Yes, every school does promise research - it can be hard to ferret out which ones truly offer great opportunities.
Besides honors classes which are typically a great option if available, research and internships will be easier to do if homework is a non-issue. Taking a bigger load and/or graduate level classes is an option at some schools.
Honors colleges offer valuable perks and let you meet some of the top students at your college. However they are often oversold with glossy pamphlets implying a small LAC has been set up inside the larger university giving an elite private education at the public school price. On this forum you’ll read posters who also say/imply that.
Depending on the program offerings may range from separate honors classes to taking just one honors seminar per semester. And some of the “honors” offerings may just be a special discussion section of the regular class (at many U’s you meet 2-3x a week in a large class with the prof, then everyone meets weekly in a discussion section with a TA). You really need to dig in to find what a particular school offers.
Keep in mind honors programs typically offer the small classes and hand-picked profs only the 1st two years of college. They can do this because doesn’t take that many classes to come up with a set that will meet the lower-division requirements for most majors. It is rare to find more than a token amount of upper-division classes since the honors program simply doesn’t have enough faculty members to create entire major(s). So the last two years most/all classes are taken with the rest of the students in the regular U’s classes. The teaching of the profs will be geared towards the normal U level, the discussions and student involvement in class will be dominated by the regular students, and so on. Class sizes may balloon, too, if you’re in a popular major.
Peer effects are big, too; when almost everyone around you at school is a strong student you have lots of good students to emulate in class or outside it such as doing research or internships, you have kids ahead of you with names and information about those opportunities that are not widely publicized (if at all). When it comes to finding a job, employers are less likely to send recruiters to a campus with a limited number of honors seniors when they can get a campus-full at more highly regarded schools.
Honors colleges do offer some valuable perks, in addition to the classes. Typical ones include registering for classes before everyone else so you get the classes you want (a perk worth its weight in gold!), special counselors, guaranteed housing, special library privileges. They will mark your diploma with special recognition. But I would have reservations about attending a college for its honors program in place of a more highly regarded U if finances are not an issue.
Sometimes, a department may offer honors courses not associated with an honors program (if there is such a thing).
Sometimes, a department’s major may have more than one option for in-major core courses, and electives of varying difficulty. For example, a math department may have different versions of real analysis or advanced calculus, with the more difficult version aimed at students intending to go on to PhD study in math or who otherwise want a more rigorous treatment of the material. An economics department may have different intermediate courses based on the level of math used in them.
When she has acceptances and scholarships in hand, she should try to do an overnight, shadow a student for a day, and if possible, meet faculty in her area of interest. So many really bright kids end up at so many schools for all kinds of reasons, including financial, that it’s unlikely she’ll outclass everyone else. Being at the upper end of a college class can open so many doors, whether for research, grad schools, or job placement.
DS had a number of super smart classmates choose less selective schools, and they have had incredible opportunities in and out of the classroom. Some kids do better as the big fish in the small pond rather than vice versa.
It is also possible that a large school may have more offerings for outlier students than a small school may have, simply because there are enough outlier students to be worth offering an honors course or other more difficult course to. But that should be checked specifically with the college and departments of interest instead of assuming just by the size of the college.
I think one needs to be fairly careful about what “challenging” means. In some majors (like engineering) or in pre-med courses, there may tend to be more weed-out at a less selective college than there is at a more selective one. Exams may be graded on a steep curve. In very large classes the students leading the curve may be at least as strong academically as your daughter.
Some people suggest that in more selective schools, especially at small LACs, students get more “hand holding”. They may get more/better academic advising. In smaller classes it may be easier to persuade a professor to extend a deadline. So in this respect a smaller, more selective college may provide a less challenging (or stressful) environment than a safety school. There is an old line about Harvard being much harder to flunk out of than it is to get in.
On the other hand, at a smaller more selective college you may get heavier reading loads and more writing assignments. You may be expected not only to do the readings before you come to class, but also to think about and be prepared to discuss them. At a top college you’ll also be studying and living with a higher concentration of very bright, talented, and often very affluent kids from all over the country. You may find this “challenging” in either a positive or a negative way.
Visiting schools overnight and sitting in on classes is a way to test the waters.
Sometimes you can access the course syllabus online for a detailed description of what’s covered.
You also can have a look at graduation and post-graduate outcomes. Try to assess the characteristics not only of the college overall but also of the specific programs that interest her. In those programs the safety school may attract many strong students like your daughter, and challenge them accordingly, at a lower price than you’d pay to attend one of your reach schools.
If you are on the merit hunt, being in the top applicant pool increases your odds. It is the approach my kids have to take. We visit with individual depts and ask questions about how our student will fit in their dept and what opportunities they will have.
Our kids homeschool and graduate with atypical accomplishments. Our current college student is a college jr by yrs of attendance, but he is taking grad level physics courses bc he finished all of his UG physics requirements last yr as a sophomore. When meeting with depts, ability to take grad level courses and jump into research as a freshman were key requirements for him. Our current high school sr is already at college graduation level in French and at some schools she is there in Russian. Those are the 2 areas she wants to concentrate in. She has had 2 schools come out and tell her not to attend bc they have nothing to offer her. But she has equally had depts willing to create independent courses with professors working directly with her in order for her to achieve her language goals. One of the best fits is actually a school that only offers a minor in Russian. That professor is willing to create 1-on-1 literature courses, grammar courses, etc. She is new dept head that wants to build their dept into a major and she can use an energetic advanced student to help create the atmosphere she desires.
Anyway, lots of hours of groundwork can lead to some interesting options. Ideal? Probably not. Doable and with unique experiences and opportunitie? Yes.