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<p>Im sorry but we dont need to spend 200K to learn from disappointments.</p>
<p>Exie, I actually agree with many of the things you talk about, worry about the many downsides of high expectations like you do, believe me. You just assume too much. You can’t assume just because a parent want their kid to go to PA, PEA and Ivy this parent is less caring and doesn’t care as much about “fit” or their kid’s happiness as you do. That’s just not true in this case. My kid plays a competitive sport and I see all the time how much kids wither under pressure and the number one exercise I work on with him day in and day out is not to measure his success in wins or losses, especially not to measure them against expectations, mine or his or anyone else’s. Human nature always makes us measure ourselves against expectations, mostly our own, but deep down he knows there is only one measure, i.e. did he give his all, regardless of results. No, No, I wouldn’t be disappointed at all if my kid doesn’t go to Ivy, if tomorrow he convinces me that an alternative is better. But I know my kid, he thrives in competitive environments, in sports and academics, and he thinks he should go to PA, PEA, or IVY. I don’t see anything wrong with that. In fact I encourage it, as long as it’s my assessment that this route is his best “fit”. You simply over-generalize, implying somehow families or kids who aim high are snobs and don’t contribute to the community as much. That’s not just biased, it’s harmful. Through my kid’s sport, I have come to known many high achieving kids who are the most respectful, well balanced kids, and who are true role models in their communities. Of course, we are all limited in what we see and experience, and we all need to be more open-minded about other views and experiences. That’s why we come here, to share, to learn, to reflect. Now that I read more of your posts, I see that you are well intentioned most of the time. But you simply assume too much.</p>
<p>@ProsParent,</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind words. But I’m not assuming anything. I looked strictly at your phrasing (perhaps it was not your intention) to form an answer to the question you asked. So did several other experienced people on the boards. You asked a question - you got an answer from several of us that you didn’t like. Based on your assessment below you wondered if your son should go to Andover and many of us said “no” in so many words. You’re about to spend $200,000 on a “maybe” and a “probably not.” </p>
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<p>That’s what we are responding to. Your flawed concept of failure and the “perception” that Andover students are like your son. They’re not going to be. At all. That’s why the schools works so hard to create a diverse class (in terms of interests, ability, motivation, gender, race, region, etc.) Not every student/family wants what you want and they deserve more respect for their choices than you give them. </p>
<p>Your assumptions about the admissions and college matriculation process were also flawed. Worse - I worry that your assessment of your son may not be as on target as you think. I know - I face a lot of angry parents every year who assume their children’s high stats and lengthy resumes have automatically earned them a place at the table, then get a denial letter in March. Or flip out with their straight A kid starts pulling C’s in boarding school or college. Also, admissions is now so competitive that the process involves more qualitative attributes than you think. In this entire discussion you focused on what he can “get” from attending Andover - not what your son would contribute. Again - A huge red flag for Adcoms who have to live with the students 24-7.</p>
<p>If your son has a better shot at his dream college by staying home, then he should step out of the applicant pool. If he’s looking for a challenge and is able to be a contributing member of a campus culture which may well be significantly more complex and diverse than you give it credit for, then I hope he finds his “match” on March 10th.</p>
<p>As many parents will attest - the viewbooks and marketing material are designed to raise the volume of applications and inflate expectations so you’ll “apply.” By raising the applicant pool it allows the Adcoms to shape a well balanced class. The marketing materials don’t necessarily tell the story of what happens once you set foot on campus. That changes based on the individual. For some it’s a labor of love. For others, it’s a strained existence.</p>
<p>Wanting something and setting high goals is not, in itself, the problem. Suggesting that everyone who doesn’t want the same things are “failures” - said more about your values than you may have intended.</p>
<p>Would you like to retract that statement about failures?</p>
<p>Thanks, Exie. That was fair. I intended this thread to be a discussion about the upside vs. downside of the most selective Bs’s, especially the value of the experience vs. lowered chance of a top choice college (yes I think one should view the sum of the BS and college experience together in a child’s education). From some feedbacks here and other threads on CC, it seems that many view the learning/growing at BS more than make up for the lowered college chances, but then I had the sense that I didn’t hear much from those who had second thoughts in hindsight. Yes, I would have worded the original question differently had I known the word “fail” (I did put “” on it but seems like it didn’t matter) would sidetracked the discussion. I would never put the blame on the kids’ effort and heart if things don’t turn out well, but I do think it’s the parents’ and school’s job to make sure beforehand that every kid that goes to a top BS is a good “match” or “fit”. The matriculation stats tell me that a large number were probably not good “fit”. People on this board will have very different take on this but I do think one should have this discussion before sending junior to a highly competitive BS. Best wishes.</p>
<p>Prosparent, as you have learned, you have to take care with your wording here. There are certain collective opinions among the regulars of this forum, which cannot be challenged (or appear to be challenged) without a struggle. If it makes you feel any better, I noticed the quotes around fail in your first post, and did not see you as having a “crippling obsession” with ivy admission. To my reading, you simply did not want to close up options which might be important to your kid.</p>
<p>And I, as someone very concerned about “fit”, feel the same way. If I thought prep school would substantially harm my kid’s chances of “top tier” colleges, I would be less likely to send her. If I thought prep school would substantially harm my kid’s chances of second or third colleges, I would be less likely to send her. If I thought prep school would substantially harm my kid’s chances of our state university, I would be less likely to send her. Because I care about “fit”, and cannot be sure exactly what she will want several years down the road, and want to keep the options open. Including the ivies, which may actually be a “good fit” for her. So, good question and discussion.</p>
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<p>I wish applicants would focus more on how well they will do in the school if they actually got in. If you are not confident that you can comfortably be in the top half of the class ranking, then I would strongly discourage going. </p>
<p>Attending the most selective schools is a VERY humbling experience for a kid who is used to being the top dog in his/her middle school. At the most selective BS’s, you will know what your approximate class rank is. Ivy League admissions aside, it will simply suck being in the bottom half of your HS class.</p>
<p>But what are the chances of a top dog in a school with 25% of Ivy admit rate ending up in the bottom half of the class in a top BS, assuming the kid maintains his motivation and focus? Then if he loses them, he’d go downhill in his old school as well. Of course, top or bottom half is not nearly OP’s concern. He wants his kid to remain a top dog, which no one can garantee. Even if you come in as a top dog, you may not be 2 or 3 years down the road, and vice versa. Kids change and grow, very dramatically, in HS.</p>
<p>I suggest posters here take an interest of the questioner’s true concerns and answer their questions, instead of right off the bat judging the questioner harshly. No one is an expert in teaching other parents how to parent their own kids. Let’s face it. No adult will ever be “persuaded” by the few posters who are most vocal and dogmatic. They simply shut up and leave. This is wrong.</p>
<p>@OP: It’s absolutely reasonable to take college admissions into consideration when making high school choice decisions. My experience is that many parents of top BS, just like you, are supporting their kids to dream big, and even pushing them to, but the majority of them would say instead of being fixated on a few colleges they want their kids to live up to their potential, and develop strong capabilities in the process. They understand how competitive the elite college admissions are and coming April, many seniors are surprised their parents suddenly become so “supportive” and finally realize it’s not the outcomes their parents are pursuing but the assurance that a “right kid” (in kidsparent’s term) who’s been trained and vetted and who could prosper in the tough world out there.</p>
<p>“The matriculation stats tell me that a large number were probably not good “fit”.”</p>
<p>ProsParent,</p>
<p>The above statement reveals a misconception, that is, it assumes that A or E, by definition, confers on its graduates an automatic entry to HYPMS. The fact is that it was that way decades ago, when A and E (along with GLADCHEMMS and St Grotlesex) were very much ‘feeder schools’ to the Ivies and other ‘top’ colleges.</p>
<p>At some point (I think in the early 60’s) someone at Yale told someone at Andover that, ‘Yes, we still want your graduates, we just don’t want those from the bottom third of the class’. Why? Because an egalitarian wave swept America in those days, where places like Yale decided to open their doors to applicants based on academic merit more and less on those from the ‘old boy network’. And, it has been getting progressively more meritorious since then. </p>
<p>But, that’s not to say that even those of lower class standing at a GLADCHEMMS school cannot handle the work at the “top” colleges, for it has been shown often that those schools will amply prepare students for university rigor. Rather, it’s a reflection of today’s educational landscape. Colleges will take only so many from their former feeders. Those are just the breaks.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, the boarding school experience remains unmatched by the collegiate one for the vast majority of students there, regardless of where they matriculate for higher education, and their ‘old school’ is held more fondly to them than any university affiliation they have. </p>
<p>Moreover, it may interest you to know that, lo and behold, there are dozens of colleges out there, outside the ‘holy grail’, offering top-notch academics, active social life and networking for life after college, to which that “large number” you spoke of will attend and thrive. </p>
<p>Now, do you really suppose they did not “fit” at their top notch boarding school?</p>
<p>leanid, that is a very fair question. If those kids truly benefited tremendously from the top BS experience and the only reason they ended up in colleges they would not have considered before BS (I expect disagreement here) is the reality of the college process, then all is fair as long as everybody involved knew what to expect beforehand. On the other hand, if the experience somehow turns some otherwise confident and capable kids (they wouldn’t chose a top BS if they weren’t) into someone with less confidence and capability, then the process didn’t work for those kids and they were probably not “fit” to begin with. I certainly don’t have the answers but that’s certainly something I wonder before I send my kid to a top BS.</p>
<p>ProsParent, do look further into the future. When your kid graduates from HS, he’s only 18. There’s still plenty time and room to grow and change. Many top BS graduates would tell you how their BS prepared them to be more capable and confident, and they didn’t realize it until they stepped out of BS. There may be some who can’t get over the “tramatic experience” of a top BS and stay bitter long after they graduate but even in that case I am not sure if their BS experience made them stronger and more capable anyway. I think at the end of the day sending your kid to a top BS is a calculated risk to take (In that sense, isn’t staying back at a local school as well?) If you are not ready for it, and having a hard time giving up your local option that’s already many people’s dream school, then I’d join many other posters and suggest you to stay put. It’s safer and he seems to have a better chance ending up in a top college. Good luck!</p>
<p>"…then all is fair as long as everybody involved knew what to expect beforehand."</p>
<p>That’s just the point, by now it should be abundantly clear for all applicants to boarding schools (top ones and others) that admission to the so-called best of the best colleges is a crap-shoot. And, no, they shouldn’t feel any the less for it if they are denied entry to HYPMS, because preparatory schools are ends in themselves. And, while the popular view may be that they are preparatory for college, they are not, in the long run they are preparatory for LIFE. This is the point that is lost on many parents and, by unfortunate extension, their children. The children, fortunately, will see that as they experience BS life.</p>
<p>Send your child to a ‘top’ boarding school – if he/she can handle the work and has a gut feeling that ‘this is it’ – but send him knowing that what he gains from it is far more precious than an Ivy acceptance, which may or may not happen.</p>
<p>^ Agree with this. It’s an end unto itself. The quality of the college outcome, whatever that might be, is just icing on the cake. High school is more important than college because habits are set, not just around book learning, but life learning. Choose your boarding school wisely and you will be doing more to help your child lay down a foundation for a successful life than any subsequent college choice.</p>
<p>I’m with leanid on the aboveˆˆˆ</p>
<p>And I’ll repost something that I had found earlier, which IMO is pretty much all you need to read:</p>
<p>Just returned from an Andover weekend briefing on the college process. They brought in a number of admissions officers from colleges to speak about process, essays, and parental involvement. Inevitably, a question on many parent minds was asked to at least one of the college officers “Is it worth it to go from being a top student somewhere, to being middle of the pack at a great BS, such as Andover”? I liked the response “if you are looking at Andover as a down payment for prestigious college admission, you may be disappointed. However, if you are looking at PAA as a down payment for educational and life excellence, you will be greatly rewarded.”</p>
<p>There it is, from a PAA college process briefing. Don’t know that much more needs to be said.</p>
<p>Exactly. And if they go to prep school, they will quickly find out that there are many more great colleges than “Ivy,” which in the end, is just an athletic league. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that often people develop much deeper loyalty and ties to their boarding school than their college, and in my family that is turning out to be the case. BTW, I have never met any “bitter” or disappointed boarding school alums under the age of 35…maybe I’m hangng out with the wrong crowd!</p>
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Me neither. Just to throw the possibility out there to complete the circle. Theoretically there could be. If nothing else, some people are just born to be the pessimistic and whiny type (not saying whoever complains is the type…)</p>
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<p>This is just a ploy from the college counseling office to lower parents college expectations. Andover or any other BS cant guarantee you educational and life excellence. Take for example GWB. You know the rest of the story.</p>
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<p>They’re all a good fit if you look past matriculation to examine what the alum do with their connections and their “lesser known” college choices. They start business and nonprofits. Employ thousands of people. Heal the sick, teach children, dance with joy on and off stage. They raise families, start farms and co-ops, go into space and explore the ocean. And everything in between. </p>
<p>Boarding schools don’t want a campus filled with clones of your son. I don’t mean that disrespectfully - but I wonder why YOU would want that? You might find that many if not most of those students are better fits - just have different plans for their futures. You can’t keep dressing up the word “failure” with alternative semantics that sound more palatable. </p>
<p>You’re free to determine what your son’s path “should be” but I suspect his own assessment of his trajectory will change once he enters boarding school. No matter how good your current school is, boarding school will likely open up opportunities that are mind blowing. It’s like going to college early in some cases given the wealth of resources and connections.</p>
<p>The goal should be (to the best of your ability)</p>
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<li>happy, healthy, fulfilled</li>
<li>finding a school that loves your child and can take them to the “next level” in their development.</li>
</ol>
<p>Just one opinion among many. Do let us know how it turns out for you. Believe or not - we debate a lot on the boards, but we do care about the kids and the impact on their families. It’s a brutal process - applications - not always for the faint of heart.</p>
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<p>Somehow I was thinking the same thing. Boarding schools do have their share of lax legacies with deep pockets. Those donors go a long way in fueling an endowment that allows schools to educate more qualified candidates.</p>
<p>But in GWB’s defense - I know my share of students who were “warehoused.” Following the family script and a preplanned path. Students with wealth and family fame who were on the phones at night begging to come back home. Students whose parents had social calendars so nannies raised them. Not all - but enough to say - sometimes the “fit” is the parent’s wallet - not the kid. I wonder what GW would have done with his life if he’d been born into a different family. :(</p>
<p>Well, GWB did become President of the United States.</p>
<p>All this talk about prep school being an end itself is probably making my old philosophy professor turn over in his grave. According to Aristotle, only happiness is an intrinsic good that should be valued as an end in itself. Hence, prep school can be a means to the ultimate end of happiness. But it cannot be that ultimate end itself. At least, that’s what my old philosophy professor would say. And he was a pretty smart guy.</p>