Hi! I recently found out that I’ve been accepted to the University of Richmond with the Presidential Scholarship (1/3 tuition) and the Tuition Exchange Scholarship ($42K). I also got a likely letter from the College of William and Mary, but did not receive anything about candidacy for the 1693 Scholars program or any other merit aid. I know this may sound like a silly question, as W&M would be more than double the cost of UR, but is there any sense in considering W&M? I intend to study political science and philosophy, and want to pursue law, but want to do so in a way that actually enables me to make a difference rather than get rich. My sense is that W&M fosters a more caring, humanities-based environment, while UR encourages a more pre-professional one. Is this true? If so, is it worth the extra money to be around people and in a curriculum that more closely align with my life goals?
I have also been admitted to St. Olaf college for $25K a year but am less excited about that school. I applied to the George Washington University Honors Program (500 students), and would likely be able to attend for 35-40K if I got Tuition Exchange, but am not excited about the university if I am not accepted to the honors program. Finally, I applied to Emory, Duke, and Wesleyan University, but my odds of getting into/being able to afford any of those schools is relatively slim.
I know this will ultimately be a decision for my family and I, but I would greatly appreciate any guidance!
So I personally agree the vibe can be pretty different between these colleges, with William & Mary much more academicky/nerdy and Richmond more pre-professional/preppy. William & Mary is also in my view a notably stronger college for Political Science-type stuff–this is a real strength of theirs–and then humanities generally. Like, William & Mary had 20 graduating students with a primary major of Philosophy in the latest NCES College Navigator, Richmond had 2. William & Mary is over twice the size, but still, I think that is indicative of the large difference in emphasis.
Indeed, Business primary majors were 320/767 at Richmond (about 42%), versus 224/1583 (14%) at William & Mary.
OK, but is that worth the cost difference to you? You are right that I am going to say that is a decision for you and your family. But I do not think it is a silly question, not at all.
The PPEL major at Richmond seems like a great fit for your interests. Major Requirements - PPEL - School of Arts & Sciences - University of Richmond (Maybe this siphons people off of the pure philosophy major?) And Richmond is a diverse city, and a state capital, which could offer more locally in terms of internship opportunities than Williamsburg.
I’m sure you’d be able to find like-minded people at either school. While there’s undoubtedly some truth to the reputations and stereotypes, there are doubtless people at W&M who only want to make money, and people at UR who want to make a difference. Either school would have more than enough resources to facilitate the pursuits you choose in working toward your goals.
Will you be able to visit both?
FWIW… the information in these profiles is a bit outdated, but at the time the info was compiled, W&M had a wealthier student body than UR:
With respect to diversity, you might appreciate Richmond’s geographical mix. 85% of its students arrive from outside of Virginia, compared to 42% at W&M.
IIRC William and Mary only gives a certain amount of need based aid to OOS students. I’m sorry that I don’t recall the exact amount.
BUT if your family says you can choose amongst these colleges and finances are not a consideration, then you can do so. BUT do check with your family to make sure that they will fund the more expensive college…do that now.
These are both fine colleges, really they are. Is there any chance you can revisit them both as an accepted student?
And you still have some pending applications…you might change your mind once those decisions are received!
That is a fair point, although as a Humanities, and Philosophy, fan, it would sadden me if this was true. Like, most of the colleges at universities I know of with PPE degrees also have a decent number of Philosophy majors, but I have not really looked at SLACs.
That is also a very good question. Particularly if you are thinking you might want to go into lower-paying legal fields, emerging from law school with a minimum of debt is a very good idea.
In terms of academic reputation, these schools are peers. If you were my child, I’d strong encourage Richmond since the cost difference is over $100,000 unless you absolutely can’t see yourself at the school. Have you asked Richmond if an overnight visit with a student with similar academic interests is a possibility?
Go to your cheapest, best option. Admission to law school is largely based upon GPA and LSAT. You want to minimize undergrad debt. So W&M 55K vs U Rich 25k? It’s a no brainer, U Richmond.
While law schools are offering more scholarships these days, law school is not cheap. I graduated from law school in 2002. It took me 20 years to repay my law school loans. The only educational debt I had was from law school, and I am in private practice. You don’t appear to want to be in private practice and could potentially be taking on law school debt. In such an event, why would you be considering saddling yourself with additional educational debt for an undergraduate degree? Richmond is an excellent school. You will get out of it what you put into it. Do well; ace the LSAT.
I think this conclusion only holds from the argument you presented if the sole criterion you have for college choice is its utility in getting you admitted to law school.
Not all people care about this, which is fine, but personally I think it is at least permissible to care about your experience in college, what you learn, who you meet, and so on. Not just the credential you get at the end.
As a final thought, I hope the OP is open to changing her mind about law school. I think it can be a road to doing public good, but it is a hard road. JDs wanting to do such things are oversupplied, which drives down compensation, and drives up the qualifications needed for the jobs which are more satisfying. So I think a lot of people with such a vision should at least consider alternatives, including through the mechanism of getting a job after college rather than immediately going to law school. Depending on how that goes, that could be it for education. Or, potentially, such a person may find that rather than get a JD, they would be better off with an MPA, or MSW, or so on, depending on what is actually needed for advancement in her career.
My point is I would actively discourage the OP in particular, given what she wrote, from seeing college as just a mechanism for her eventually getting admitted to law school. The good news is that is going to be an option from any college she mentioned if she does well (and I note happy people tend to do better). But then college can be more than that for her, it can be an opportunity to explore interests, explore alternative paths, and maybe not end up a lawyer at all.
The other problem with these “how many people major in X?” stats is that seemingly, when people double-major, only one of the majors gets counted. This artificially lowers the stats for popular second-majors, such as foreign languages. It’s possible that philosophy could fit this pattern too. (And a lot of LAC’s like Richmond, make double-majoring very easy and commonplace… although I have no idea whether that’s any less true at W&M.)
I think minimizing or eliminating debt is important for any student with a public-benefit focus, whether there’s pre-law intention or not; because opportunities to do good in the world often don’t pay very well, especially at entry-level. Maximizing financial resources also maximizes the options kept open.
Very very helpful decision to make, even if the student ultimately does decide to go to law school. In many law schools a majority, or sizable minority of the students come to law school with a year or more of professional work experience. Those students have distinct advantage over students who go straight through from law school to college: higher level and more diverse professional skills, potential subject mater expertise in a desirable industry, more self-knowledge and understanding about professional goals and preferences, and the additional maturity that comes with time. Whether law school is in OP’s future or not, some time off between college and law school is highly recommended.
I do think this can get short shrift on CC, with many posters taking a purely practical point of view as to the professional utility of the college degree. And, that’s an important perspective to always keep in mind. But, the lived experience of actually being in college is sometimes discounted, and I think it’s a really valid consideration. Students can and should consider where they’ll be happy, where they’ll be more likely to form lifelong friendships, and where they’ll get to achieve the most personal growth (not just professional credentials).
With that William & Mary is up to 35 for Philosophy, which actually puts it quite high overall. Richmond goes to 5.
In terms of public service careers, I think it depends, but frankly the JDs I know who have the more enjoyable/higher status public service jobs, the ones hard to get, usually have outside financial support. So, families that could pay for suitable colleges and sometimes help pay for suitable law schools, or sometimes later in life a high income spouse allowing them to shift careers.
So while again I am completely against any sort of hard, non-contextual rule in favor of paying more for a more suitable college, I am equally against a hard, non-contextual rule opposed to doing that. I think it really depends on things like the family’s financial circumstances, what the kid is really looking for in a college experience, openness to changing paths, and so on.
Speaking of other paths after graduation… another proxy for “doing good in the world” energy (although admittedly just one niche within a broad category) is a school’s production of Peace Corps volunteers. A list of top producers comes out every year.
William & Mary is pretty much always on the list, in the mid-sized college category. They have at least 20 alumni in the Corps at any given time, often more - 46 in in the 2020 pandemic year!
URichmond doesn’t usually make the top-producers list, but they did in 2016, with 9 volunteers active that year https://files.peacecorps.gov/images/news/releases/schools2016.pdf There’s a lot of movement among the smaller schools; for example, tiny St. Mary’s of Maryland, which didn’t make the list at all in 2016, was #1 in 2018 with 17 volunteers. It generally takes 8 alumni volunteers participating at once for a small college to make the list. A 2011 article about the Peace Corps’ 50 year anniversary stated that URichmond had produced 135 total volunteers over that 50 year period. (The lists are based on current participation, not matriculation, so each volunteer is counted in more than one year, in the yearly lists.) So, having 9 volunteers active at once was unusual for UR, but it seems that they have a steady flow of a couple students a year into the PC. W&M is the heavier hitter in this regard, though, for sure. By comparison with UR’s 2011 total, W&M stated in 2011 that they’d produced 560 total volunteers over the 50 years.
All of which may be tangential, since the OP may be looking for a different type of public service/benefit altogether, but I thought the stats were interesting. And they reflect both interest and achievement, since getting into the Peace Corps isn’t easy - the acceptance rate is only around 23%.
That’s so interesting! I agree that applying all appropriate qualifications of course, that is at least one useful proxy for considering the sorts of people you might be networking with, even if you don’t have this interest yourself.
Interesting. I know several law school classmates in public service jobs, from SPLC to NGOs in Africa. To a person, none come from money. To a person none are currently married (one is a widow to a good friend of mine who died young, he did not come from money, either). They each earned their positions through years of hard work, typically with BigLaw, then working their way up the ranks of the public service sector.
Richmond due to its smaller class sizes, beautiful campus and more geographic diversity. The presidential scholarship likely comes with great perks as well. Congrats!