% of undergrad Pell Grant recipients for 2011-12 (the year of the senior class from the NYT data) and 2022-23:
W&M: 12.5%, 12.7%
UR: 19.0%, 17.5%
One thing that has remained consistent is that W&M continues to have the lowest percentage of Pell recipients of any of Virginia public institutions of higher learning. And among all institutions, Washington & Lee continues to slightly trail W&M to keep them out of the lowest spot among all publics and privates combined.
Yeah, William & Mary in isolation is not exactly the greatest engine for upward social mobility available among public universities.
I do think Virginia as a whole has an interesting approach, with a real diversity of different public colleges. Viewed in that way, it might be OK for William & Mary alone not to be doing a great job fulfilling that particular mission.
Still, the blunt fact is William & Mary is one of those schools where it is mostly taking upper middle class kids with highly educated parents–many either from OOS or like Northern Virginia or other upper middle class, highly educated areas in Virginia–and turning them into highly educated adults on track for upper middle class lives themselves.
Separately, I wouldn’t say either of these schools have a ‘barbell’ shape in terms of student financial status, nor are they engines of social mobility. The income data ranges at the top levels are interesting, as are the Pell Grant numbers. It’s good that these schools have increased Pell Grant percentages but fundamentally they are still schools for the relatively affluent. Families with incomes up to about $65K (can go a bit higher with more kids) can qualify for partial Pell Grants. $65K is in the range of ‘middle class’ income as defined by many sources.
Looking at the Class of 2027 CDSs, Richmond was about 62% full pay (316/833 or 37.9% first years qualified for need based aid). W&M was about 65% full pay (573/1642 or 34.9% first years qualified for need based aid). Of note is that Richmond COA is quite a bit more expensive at around $80K per year, while W&M is $64K OOS and $40k in-state.
I realize that there are likely some upper middle class families at both these schools who didn’t qualify for need based aid, and that there can be lifestyle differences between a family who
makes $250K vs $600K, but does that meaningfully impact the vibe of a school? Probably not, as NUM said.
Yeah, none of these colleges are barbell shaped in the normal sense. Each has a steadily increasing percentage of students as you move up by family income group.
I probably shouldn’t even use the term, but what I meant is just that relative to William & Mary, Richmond has higher percentages at the top and bottom, William & Mary in the middle. But only relatively, again both increase steadily over the distribution.
In the context of the OP’s stated concerns that they “grew up in a very diverse, relatively poor area, and am a bit worried about the overwhelming preppy/wealthy stereotype at Richmond,” the data seems to show that W&M skews more wealthy overall and with a significantly lower percentage of lower-income students (with the caveat that a decade after the NYT study data, UR may still have a higher percentage of 1-percenters) I don’t know whether the wealthy students at UR skew more “preppy” than those at W&M.
Interestingly, for racial/ethnic diversity, W&M and UR are almost identical in every category.
As another poster mentioned, one of the largest distinguishing demographic factors is the percentage of OOS students at each.
Broadly, W&M skews cultural upper middle&upper v. UR skews financial upper middle& upper (eg., doctor, academic, scientist v. owns a highly successful chain of Z stores, topnotch MBA who was among the youngest VPs…). “W&M students discuss fonts, UR students discuss markets” type of contrast.
(Or UWS v. UES …or Campaign manager v. DoD contractor… or Handball v.Lax Bro… or snobbish v. Cliquey …etc you get the idea.) Obviously painting with a very broad brush and tongue in cheek ;): all students are individualz and most wouldn’t fit into the above but there are different ways to be in the top SES quadrants and W&M has a different, pretty unique vibe from both UVA and VTech (all topnotch public universities ).
Obviously neither is very socioeconomically diverse and nothing changes the fact W&M sounds unaffordable.
UR Westhampton College, some choices of major/courses , etc., could change the UR experience, which at least can be customized, whereas a loan can’t be
I hope OP gets into other programs and considers their other options since her top 2 choices seemingly are either a poor fit or unaffordable.
I really appreciate this thoughtful response. I know Asa is a gender-ambiguous name, but I am a male, meaning that Westhampton College and other such programs aren’t an option. The rest of your reply is very helpful!
I wonder how many of the school stereotypes I read about on CC are based on information way older than the decade-old NYT income/wealth data. Such things have a habit of sticking around long after they are relevant. (Not to point any fingers, because I know my own college impressions/stereotypes are very dated, yet are very sticky).
In my case, I visited both of these colleges last summer with my S24. I really did not know anything about Richmond before he started looking at colleges. I knew a little bit about William & Mary, but really not much. So I think most of my impressions are very recent.
Of course that is just me. I am not from Virginia or the region generally, I had not looked at these colleges back when I was applying, and I didn’t have any close friends or family who attended them. So there would not have been much reason for me to know much about them before I had a kid interested in them. But others may go way back with them.
I can’t speak for others but not very dated as far as I’m concerned. Because cross-admits between UVA/W&M or in some cases VTech/W&M (or all three) aren’t rare, students choose them for specific reasons - some may be whether they got a named scholarship, food, etc., but each university is prestigious and distinctive enough to have its own vibe that appeals to different personalities in aggregate. It doesn’t mean you won’t find the same happy students or that one would “obviously” choose one over the other but they “feel” different. Even if you just read the campus visit reports on this website, families have preferences - all 3 are great but different choices. Stats are very useful but don’t reveql everything, a bit like reading the recipe tells you the ingredients and if you’re likely to like it but doesn’t tell you the flavor till you’re done and taste it. (Data is very useful too, of course).
UR has a top business school and many students choose it for the combination of business&Liberal arts excellence. It definitely influences the campus atmosphere. (W&M has a business school too but its position on campus is quite different.)
However, it doesn’t change the fact W&M is unaffordable so either OP finds ways to make UR more W&M-like/like their optimal choice or other colleges come through.
@Asa1M : sorry, posters use all sorts of handles.
Have you been in contact with current Philosophy students at all colleges that admitted you?
What were your reasons to stop considering St Olaf?
Richmond offers potential students to sit in on classes which my D did. I don’t recall the name of the class, but the subject matter on that day involved Richard Nixon. My D said it was extremely interesting and a great class. Perhaps reach out to Admissions and ask if you can attend classes at both schools. Richmond has made huge efforts to increase its diversity and is not only need blind but also guarantees to meet 100% of demonstrated need. Richmond’s selectivity continues to rise. Also, take a look at Endowments: Richmond is in T30 of all universities/colleges for per student $$.
As someone who recently joined a Virginia public higher education (which is very decentralized than my previous experiences in North Carolina and Louisiana), it does not appears that top down from some kinds of public board, but more of organic approach. Perhaps some invisible hand playing cards here.
Obviously it is an extremely old state (slash colony) too, with a really complex history. So institutions like William & Mary and UVA predate the modern university era that didn’t really take off until the Morrill Land Grant Act of 1862.
Virginia Tech, in contrast, was very much created as a modern land-grant school, but in states like Virginia these colleges were filling in perceived gaps left by the older institutions. VCU was originally a medical college only much later expanded, James Madison was originally a women’s college that only much later went co-ed, Old Dominion was originally an extension school for William & Mary . . . .
So “organic” is probably a good word. “Chaotic” might fit as well. But for sure there has been a sort of constant evolution of older institutions to fit changing needs.
Absolutely. Also GMU was an urban campus of UVA and UMW was a women’s college connected to UVA. Much more complex than I expected. We will see more “evolution” come from next tier after UVA/W&M/VT. Probably that’s how they can survive and grow.
Yeah, sometimes from conversations surrounding these colleges you would get the impression the US college landscape has stayed essentially the same for all of recorded history.
The real history of higher education in the US is so much more complicated than that! Colleges have risen and fallen in prominence (and sometimes risen again), many have completely changed their nature over time (again sometimes more than once), new ones have been formed and others have ceased or been merged . . . just really interesting.
And of course this means what people think about some of the colleges kids today are choosing in, say, 20-30 years could be significantly different.
To me, this is just yet another reason to really focus on the education and experience itself, because that is what you know will last with you. Obviously to the extent you are interested in certain next steps, you can think about how a certain college as it stand today might support that. But I would not put a lot of weight on college branding beyond all that.
And of course debt can have lasting consequences too. So, get the education and experience you want at a comfortably affordable price for you and your family. Then move on to the rest of your life.
This whole conversation (re: the evolution of colleges) is really interesting to me. I grew up in VA and went to William and Mary. Having grown up here, I had several friends go to all of the referenced schools and now that I have college age kids and I still live in VA they are applying to all the same schools. It’s been a definite effort on my part to stop thinking with the 30 years ago part of my brain that was applying to colleges. Things have very definitely changed for all of these schools quite a bit since then. For example, I had a nearly visceral reaction to the poster who said that W&M and UofR are basically functional equivalents in terms of prestige. That may be true now, but was definitely not true then. And all of the other referenced schools - VT, JMU, MaryWash, ODU, GMU etc - all of them have grown so much in prestige and difficulty to get into since way back in the day. In addition to my own mindset, there’s a lot of educating, or ignoring, that I’m trying to do with my (generally older) family members on these VA schools and others, as they simply cannot fathom how much the admissions world has changed in 30 years. Sigh.
But back to OP - good luck to you. You have some great choices. I won’t give advice because I’m terribly biased towards W&M based on my truly great experience there. But I know that students have great experiences everywhere, and college is so much what you make of it. Good luck with wherever you end up!
One of the most oft-repeated sentiments is that most every kid can “find their people/tribe” at most any college.
It might take a little more work at some colleges than at others, but probably it can be done. And once you have your group of people, then you can really unlock all of the wonder a school has to offer. It’s hard to do that if you’re socially stunted and miserable as a result.
So – both W&M and Richmond are (mostly) full of kids who are fairly well-off. That will be the case at many schools these days.
St. Olaf might be a great fit, if OP can handle the winters. That also is part of “fit”.
Yeah, at a high level Richmond has been using wealth to buy its way up the prestige ladder. Which to some can sound like an insult, until you realize this is the exact same thing basically ALL “prestigious” colleges have done, and are continuing to do. So to the extent you care about that at all (and I largely do not), it is no less “real” because that has been a change over time. It is “real” now.
And what I do value is that Richmond is also using wealth to buy things that I think should matter, although of course that is related to “prestige”. Like, it has bought a really, really nice campus. It has bought a lot of great professors. It can be (as here) generous with aid, which is a way of buying good students. Again, this can sound cynical, but it is what ALL the highly-valued colleges doing, and it is all equally beneficial to the students who enroll.
So for the right kid, Richmond can be a fantastic opportunity. I do have concerns about whether it is exactly that for the OP. But I agree with the consensus–if William & Mary is not comfortably affordable, and no other college enters the mix, then the OP can figure out how to make Richmond (or St Olaf!) as close as she can get to her ideal.
This made me chuckle! I think parents probably all have this reaction to certain schools and comparisons from back in the day, decades ago. Some of this might have been based on more objective reality, and other stuff based on inaccurate stereotypes and hearsay from the time.
I also don’t put a lot of stock in posts on CC where people seem to have inordinate confidence in their ability to suss out the “vibe” or other characteristics of a college or college town area based on a visit of a couple of hours at most. It’s so dependent on mood, weather, time of day, specific location, the handful of students who someone may have interacted with, tour guide personality, etc.—not to mention confirmation bias of preconceived notions. But people are really prone to thinking their snap judgements (which humans love to make, indeed are evolved to make) mean more than they should.
you get the idea.) Obviously painting with a very broad brush and tongue in cheek ;): all students are individualz and most wouldn’t fit into the above but there are different ways to be in the top SES quadrants and W&M has a different, pretty unique vibe from both UVA and VTech (all topnotch public universities 
).
(Data is very useful too, of course).