Looking for opinions on which is better for studying biology on a pre-med track. My son was admitted to William & Mary as a Monroe Scholar and also admitted to Wake Forest. Which has a stronger STEM program and pre-med? Does the Monroe Scholar put William & Mary in the lead? Any advice would be appreciated. He did not get into his first choice schools, so we are scrambling with Plan B. Thanks!
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You can likely do research at either (not just W&M although it’s formalized with more benefits on top) - and both will be great.
But the social environment and wealth disparity of the two is quite different.
Where did your student feel best - assuming both are affordable - and when looking at budget, look at 8 years, not four.
If this is Plan B, you’ve got a home run - and frankly, for pre health, the where likely matters less - unless careers pivot - and apparently most pre med do, so you also want to be at the school where you want to be should that change. Bio, in general, not good outcomes - so another reason to look at costs if there’s a plan C that might be needed.
Or you want to look at other possible majors of interest at these two in case the student, like many, pivots what else is possible - for example, how hard to transfer to business or another major - if a possibility.
Best of luck.
What is the cost difference? Are you able to help pay for medical/grad school at all? That gets quite costly.
These are both very good schools. Which does he like better?
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We did admitted students day at Wake last weekend. He liked the school, but not the lack of diversity. We are going to W&M this weekend for admitted students day and hoping he will like it better. We will be paying full price at both institutions and for medical school.
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I think this will come down to cost and fit. Both will give an excellent education for premed. My son chose WM, but also was looking at Wake. Cost was better for us at WM, and we felt the education would be as good at either place. If your son is attending DFAS this weekend at WM, that will help give him additional insight.
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We will be at DFAS as well. Hopefully that will help him choose!
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If he chooses WM, he will be able to live in brand new Monroe Hall. A very nice perk.
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I have a current sophomore at W&M. (STEM major but not pre med, although he has several close friends who are pre med). The emphasis on undergraduate research at W&M was probably the biggest draw for my son. He was easily able to find a research position starting freshman year simply by emailing a prof. I’m sure Wake has plenty of research opportunities as well, but just thought I would highlight how easy and essentially automatic it is at W&M to start working in a lab from the get go. The faculty love to get the students on board as freshman and have them working in the lab for 4 years.
As others have said, William & Mary and Wake Forest are very comparable academically, but they are quite different culturally/socially. Most students have a clear preference between the two. There should be a session on pre health advising during DFAS. From what I have heard, pre med advising is excellent and everyone raves about Beverly Sher. You may want to reach out to her and see if she is available to speak with you during your visit.
Congratulations to your son.
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As a practical matter that may come into play years down the road, William & Mary does not have a pre-health committee (according to Health Professions Advising) but Wake Forest does. Your son should check to see if the WF committee letter is simply a summary or if it is evaluative. If the latter then a college can use it to get any desired med school “admit” rate simply by not giving strong recs to any but their best students.
But this puts the cart before the horse. Any college can teach the dozen or so lower-division classed required to apply to med school. Whether a kid works for good grades, get to know some profs so they get strong recs, take part in appropriate ECs, and develops compelling essays is up to them.
Your son should be thinking about why he wants an M.D. When a lot of HS kids become interested in a career in medicine it becomes “I’m pre-med!” and they embark on a path that will take 11+ years of school/training plus enormous debt. Doctors are far from the only ones that help people. Physical therapists, radiology techs, nurses, speech pathologists, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, to name but just a few. as you can see on http://explorehealthcareers.org/ Unless he’s carefully considered the alternatives and has spent time actually working in a health care setting (an unwritten requirement to get into med school BTW) its better to think of him as interested in exploring a career as a doctor rather than someone who has already made the decision.
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Here’s my advice. NEVER make a college decision based on “premed prestige.” Very few “premed” hopefuls coming out of high school actually decide to go to medical school. College is a maturation process. As students grow and explore, they find where their passions really are. Just choose a school you’re happy going to and go in with an open mind. Your older self will thank you later.
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These colleges in many ways are academic peers and I would not see one as notably better than the other for academic purposes or pre-med specifically. I note I agree it is wise to take very seriously the strong possibility the kid will opt out of pre-med at some point, but both of these are very good all-around colleges, so to me they are also equally good choices for that sort of scenario.
However, I also note William & Mary OOS full cost is something like $20K/year less than Wake Forest. It is up to you how to value that, but my two cents is William & Mary is quite the bargain in the full pay world, in that it pretty much feels like a high-end private and yet has that built-in lower full-pay cost.
Other than cost, I agree the other big thing to consider is that the prevailing culture/vibe is notably different. And I think for pre-med or any other next steps, the best advice would be to pick whichever school felt to the student like the place they were most likely to actually thrive. Because how they actually do will be much more important than which of these colleges they choose. For some kids this would be Wake Forest, for others William & Mary, it is just a know-yourself sort of thing.
Finally, I think Monroe is in fact a significant benefit. Getting to use the swank new dorm alone is huge (if you look around, some of the biggest complaints about William & Mary in past years involved dining and housing–they have a new dining vendor that the kids apparently like much better, and then Monroe basically solves all the housing issues). And then the program will help the kid get a jump start on networking, research, and so on. Also does not hurt to have as a resume line.
Given this, it sure does seem like William & Mary is in the lead at this point. At least as good academically, $20K/year less, Monroe is a significant benefit . . . but yes, the kid actually has to like it! So hopefully that happens.
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When you say a clear difference culturally/socially, could you elaborate on that? My kiddo is not interested in sports or fraternities. He is a science nerd and prefers to read or hang with friends than party.
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Just piling on here a bit, but – I would rate these two schools as academic peers overall, as I believe they are of similar quality. So toss any notions of prestige out the window and focus on curriculum and majors, financials, setting, and social vibe… or anything else you deem important.
Welcome to W&M.
In the last CDS, Wake shows awarding 311 of 1370 first years need aid in the last CDS. It’s what I call a rich kids school. You know what rich kids do??It has an A party rating from Niche. W&M is a B-. There would also be the need to “keep up” for a kid who isn’t necessarily wealthy.
Sounds like for your student, W&M would be the clear choice (to me).
And Monroe adds to it!! Even without, W&M says 80% do faculty mentored research. Typically, at any school, you ask faculty and you’ll find a research spot but that’s good their percentage is so high. There’s a reason kids choose W&M - it’s very academic - and when we visited it was evident in talking to kids. They have D1 sports - but football is FCS and basketball a lower league vs. Wake in the ACC.
Best of luck to your student. One never knows, but it does, on paper, seem like W&M is the better fit based on your most recent post.
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Full pay, you say, but are you in-state for William and Mary, which is a public school? W&M is about 40K in-state, about 65K OOS, and Wake Forest is 87K. In my mind, W&M is the better choice, since it’s a good school, one can do pre-med anywhere, and if you’re in-state, it’s 200K cheaper, overall.
We are seeing so many “which college is better for pre-med” posts. The answer is the same, in almost every case, the one that is a better fit for college, in general, for the student, and that fits the family budget. One can do pre-med successfully at virtually any 4 yr college.
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To be frank, that’s pretty much exactly the same as just saying he is a William & Mary kid and not a Wake Forest kid!
You might be interested in knowing there is actually a semi-official term, TWAMP, which refers to the Typical William And Mary Person. It is semi-official because it actually appears on their website. For example, see here under Traditions:
And even more so, these blog posts:
https://wmblogs.wm.edu/?s=twamp
This one in particular gives a pretty good definition:
Wake Forest of course has some people like this too, but they are very much the kind of college a lot of people seek out in part because they want big time sports events, maybe are a bit preppy, maybe are interested in Greek life, and so on. In a way, I think Wake Forest maybe has more crossover appeal with, say, UVA, as opposed to W&M.
Of course this still all has to click with your actual kid. But from my perspective, this is starting to look like a complete no-brainer. In fact, I think W&M on a Monroe may end up feeling like less of a Plan B and more of a “This should have been a Plan A!,” because it feels like such a strong fit to me with what you are describing.
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I don’t know Wake, but I am familiar with the social vibe at W&M. I have a daughter who graduated last year, a daughter who is a junior, and a son who is very much hoping to come off the waitlist. One of the things they like best about the W&M community is that the typical American college drinking scene is not dominant. It’s present if that’s what you’re looking for, but not generally considered cool. What students consider cool is interesting, creative, challenging activities—whichever ones you’re into. My daughter who is there now knows kids in the astronomy club who camped out on Sunken Gardens with telescopes to save their spot for the eclipse, kids in the archery club who play DnD every week, kids who volunteer at the animal shelter, work in research labs, help with archeological digs/restorations in CW, do traditional dance with multicultural societies, lead outdoor adventure trips, you name it, and that’s what considered cool (along with being smart and working hard in school).
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William & Mary sounds like a great fit for your son. Have fun visiting and good luck with the decision.
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A thousand years ago (ok 30) I started at W&M as a Monroe Scholar biology major planning to go to med school. My junior year - spring of junior year - I realized that I just really didn’t like science and that maybe a change was in order. I took a look at my classes and realized that - without trying - I had nearly completed the major for public policy. There were literally only two courses I needed to take my senior year to have a fully realized major. I ended up with a public policy major and minors in bio and French. Add to this I got a job assisting a professor with his research almost by accident one term (I happened to be talking to him when someone failed to show up, and he asked me to step in) and I had an amazing summer in Paris thanks to my Monroe project.
Again, all that is 30 years ago, so potentially not relevant at all now, but at least back in the day it was easy to change or add majors if wanted or needed, research wasn’t hard to come by, and Monroe projects were both fun and fulfilling.
FWIW, I was also in a sorority and played on the rugby team so while I did my share of drinking, I can attest even in those groups where you might assume more drinking than most, it still wasn’t crazy party all the time culture.
That said, Williamsburg isn’t for everyone. By the end of four years I was more than ready to not be in Williamsburg…
Good luck with wherever your son ends up, but it sounds like he has two strong choices.
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My oldest just graduated from Wake pre-med as a health and exercise science major. The Committee letter is evaluative. The committee ranks all the candidates into one of five categories: highest confidence, high confidence, good confidence, confidence, and no letter.
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