<p>Driving around Scotland I saw quite a lot of wind turbines on private farms that looked like scaled down versions of the giant ones used for large-scale power generation.</p>
<p>Anyone have any experience of these? I wonder what sort of price/output/wind conditions you would need for energy independence, perhaps coupled with a solar array too?</p>
<p>Seems like it would be nice to never pay electric bills, to heat in winter, to drive an electric car, to run some on-farm operations.</p>
<p>Costco used to sell small wind turbines. Here is a review of what those could do:</p>
<p><a href=“http://addictedtocostco.com/2009/03/10/buying-alternative-energy-items-at-costcocom/”>http://addictedtocostco.com/2009/03/10/buying-alternative-energy-items-at-costcocom/</a></p>
<p>Not too impressive. For a big turbine, you have to have a lot of open space and sustained winds that can spin the windmill (otherwise, you will have to have means to restart it - the blades are heavy!). </p>
<p>Farms used to use - may still - use lousy windmills to help power water wells. The pump would kick in when the wind would kick up. </p>
<p>There is a small niche for individual roof turbines.</p>
<p>From what I understand they are expensive and provide only a small percentage of the power your property would need. A person in my area spent $20,000 to have one installed on his property.</p>
<p>I really like the idea, especially since my daughter is pursuing a Master’s in Wind Energy, but they aren’t cost effective.</p>
<p>There is a term used in business that applies to things such as delivering packages, getting trucks to the right place on time, and even to energy - the term is dispatchable, i.e., can something be shipped and delivered when needed. </p>
<p>The problem with solar and wind energy is the energy produced cannot be turned down or ramped up according to required demand, as one is dependent on when wind blows and the sun shines. Therefore, meeting variable consumer demand is impossible, making it a killer for 95% of business production, whether it be goods or services. </p>
<p>This same problem would occur even on the smaller scale of a home or larger property, such as a farm.</p>
<p>Plus, when the wind doesn’t blow–you need a back-up. It’s hard to be totally independent of the power grid.</p>
<p>Actually, they have battery systems that store excess power produced and use stored power in battery system when power production from renewables is less. That is how folks do get off and stay off the grid. There are some in our state that do this but many like being connected, since they don’t want to have the battery system and feel its extra security to remain in the grid. </p>
<p>Yes, however, those battery systems are expensive ($10 - 20K), require constant replacement (storage ions are wearing out just by the charge itself), and as they store power they immediately are losing power efficiency due to electrical resistance drain. Let it be cloudy for a day or two and those batters are long dead if one is running a house with them. At the cost of the batteries, makes no economic sense for the short times you might need them.</p>
<p>Business cannot use batteries effectively because of the space required to store the equivalent energy of a 100-gallon tank of propane with a generator is over 200 times the area needed, plus the overlying building to protect them from the elements. Same reason why wind farms are huge and ugly to produce the same energy, as a small turbine electric plant that easily fits inside half a small city block and is not even noticed or heard.</p>
<p>Doing something is one thing; efficiency is another. Very few would pay the product costs at the store required to produce goods with wind or solar. Plus, if business did use wind and solar, it is a regressive tax on the poor re consumer prices.</p>
<p>When you “pump” what you do not use back into the grid, you can have a negative electric bill - at least in theory. </p>
<p>Solar photovoltaic is better. The sun comes up every day and the vast majority of customers pay little or nothing on their electric bills once they have a site assessment and actually follow the recommended plan. If there is interconnection between the energy utility and the customer, unused energy is put back into the grid and the customer can either receive credits on future bills or can get paid for that overflow. Solar PV is the way to go if you can handle the up-front cost.</p>
<p>Pumping back is fine, but there is no way to get back the money of putting in the system in the first place before having to repair or replace it. So what is the point? There are virtually no savings anywhere and the amount of producible energy per unit is 100+X less than conventional energy-producing systems. Therefore, one is paying for an additional system that is producing less energy per unit. Talk about taxing yourself. </p>
<p>In short, wind and solar are basically play toys of the rich; no middle class family can survive with it. Explains why 98+% of houses built are still 100% conventional energy-powered houses, no wind or solar in sight.</p>
<p>That is incorrect. If you can afford it (or take out a loan…), you can probably put up enough panels to power your house for $15-$25k, maybe less. Some larger houses and business/farms can be quite a bit more expensive. It obviously depends on energy needs.</p>
<p>If you pay $300 per month in electricity, the payback on the system is about 4-7 years. After that, you get free electricity.</p>
<p>It’s not a question of cost-effectiveness – it is; it’s a question of writing that large installation check.</p>
<p>Tremendous amount of misinformation above! </p>
<p>For an idea of pricing, here is a source -among many others - <a href=“Bergey wind Turbines and towers at low prices.”>http://www.eventhorizonsolar.com/BergeyWind.html</a></p>
<p>For REAL facts, you could worse than checking awea.org </p>
<p>There is world of difference between an off-grid application and being part of a distributed generation system. The dispatchable issues are just a huge canard that was cooked decades ago. </p>
<p>^^ It sounds inciting - nice sales pitch, but demographics bely your math for the homeowner.</p>
<p>Question: So why are not more homeowners doing it, as they build houses? I can tell you why. The average electricity bill is right around $105 per month. No way near the $300 you sight. So, triple the time for return. </p>
<p>Hum… $20K of the average electric bill $105 comes to about 190 months of electricity use, which is 16 years. And with the average home ownership being 7 - 10 years, the average homeowner will never, ever get his money back.</p>
<p>But, let’s say you stay in the house 15 - 20 years. Guess what happens just as you think you will start getting free energy - time to replace the system (most times, even before then). No system, especially one outside lasts forever.</p>
<p>And your basis for calculating your return is flawed - need to add the cost of the loan to the basis upon which you expect a return. Thereby, effectively doubling the amount you are required to get back to $30 - 50K to even think of breaking even. </p>
<p>But there is one more major issue - you will probably never be in that house that long. You will probably die first. </p>
<p>I work for an energy utility … my numbers are from personal knowledge.</p>
<p>Panels last 30 years. There is mildly diminishing performance over that time, but whether you have a $100,000 installation price and your savings are $1000 per month, or you have a $25,000 installation and your savings are $300 per month… you will – unless you are an octogenarian – see the system fully paid off. </p>
<p>And if you do pass, you leave your kids a home/business that has $0 in energy bills. </p>
<p>This is not for those who are going to be in their homes for seven years…I will grant you that.</p>
<p>Is there a concern with windmills killing birds or does that just happen on the big wind farms?</p>
<p>@xiggi - Thanks for posting that. People can read for themselves and decide if it worth their money. </p>
<p>It is important for people to know that that the output is only possible with the turbine spinning at a specific speed and anything slower, and it is produces less energy, in may cases a lot less. And that speed is totally wind (weather) dependent. I disagree, obviously, on the dispatchable issue and the economic costs structure.</p>
<p>For the record - I am not in the energy business, but I use lots of it and must know the cost of each electron I use.</p>
<p>Great information. </p>
<p>Actually, in my proposed use I would consider to combine wind turbine, solar array, and fast-growing trees for wood pellets for winter heating. </p>
<p>Just to clarify some of the economic assertions of solar PV – and wind turbines certainly apply as well, though wind is not as reliable as the sun:</p>
<p>Given inflation, energy bills will continue to rise. So if someone can fork over the five or six figures to install solar PV or wind, the savings will increase over time:</p>
<p>Inflation is typically about 2-2.5% per year.</p>
<p>Solar PV panels typically lose about 0.5% of their capacity per year.</p>
<p>So – inflation outpaces the depreciation of the modules’ performance.</p>
<p>You pay up-front in today’s money.</p>
<p>(Obviously if taking out debt is necessary, some of that advantage is taken away)</p>
<p>Hopefully supply (and more cost-effective production techniques) will rise enough to meet demand and bring down that cost of installation.</p>
<p>@presbucky - Possibly in your area, but your personal knowledge does not comport with the nation-wide data. </p>
<p>Average Monthly Electric Bills 2012 - I was off a $2 - the average is $107.</p>
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<p>Sources for the data are below; there are others. And these sources are from people trying to sell “green” energy, so you know that they are going to be a little bit on the high side to sell their products, but I will go with it. Still, no way near $300. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.builderonline.com/housing-data/average-monthly-residential-electricity-bills-and-consumption_o.aspx”>http://www.builderonline.com/housing-data/average-monthly-residential-electricity-bills-and-consumption_o.aspx</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.ecobuildingpulse.com/energy-efficiency/where-energy-efficiency-might-pay-off-most.aspx?dfpzone=home”>http://www.ecobuildingpulse.com/energy-efficiency/where-energy-efficiency-might-pay-off-most.aspx?dfpzone=home</a></p>
<p>One more source:</p>
<p><a href=“http://eyeonhousing.org/2013/12/average-monthly-electric-bill-by-state/”>http://eyeonhousing.org/2013/12/average-monthly-electric-bill-by-state/</a></p>
<p>However, you still miss the biggest point - the average owner will never be the house long enough to get a return. Nice sales pitch though for those who do not look too far out into the future.</p>