With all the campus rape threads, nobody is reading Missoula by John Krakauer?

Parent Cafe
1

I haven’t finished it yet but a lot of the issues that are brought up here on CC are in the book.

These cases are difiicult. What is interesting is we can read the victims’ thinking and psychology before, during and after the assaults.

I am only on page 90 so I don’t want to comment too much but for those interested in the campus rape subject and what happens after…I think you might like the book.

It is told from the woman’s point of view and what these women go through…

I am only on page 90 and I am getting aggravated. This Kirsten Pabst, who was in charge of a criminal case, doesn’t seem to have followed the law. :slight_smile: But, I am only on page 90, so hopefuly she redeems herself. :slight_smile:

2

Haven’t heard anything about the book, but I love John Krakauer’s books. Thanks. Will see if I can download it to my nook tonight…

3

Dstark - Don’t want to spoil the plot for you, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that person redeeming herself.
(Haven’t read the book yet, but did read the Salon interview of Jon K.last night and the brief mention of her and what she did was enough to turn my stomach. Ugh.)

4

The book is on my list to read. I’ve really enjoyed Krakauer’s books in the past and this subject matter definitely is of interest to me.

5

@MomCat2, I finished the book. :wink:

6

I saw him interviewed about the book on PBS Newshour last week. The book sounded pretty grim. The NY Times review is luke warm. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/books/review/jon-krakauers-missoula-about-rape-in-a-college-town.html?_r=0

7

The power of sports culture at the university and in the town really influences the outcomes of the victims’ rape cases.

8

The reason Krakauer chose to write Missoula is that it has most, if not all of the elements associated with this issue.
It would be a good Summer read for some of your more mature students who are heading off to college for the first time. There are lessons to be found in just about every character. Discussion should ensue.

9

Oh hey, thanks dstark. I like Jon Krakauer a lot and hadn’t heard of this book.

10

Just ordered on Amazon!

11

Ok…I finished the book. I am going to share a few thoughts. . Share my opinions and I have opinions about the stories in the book. So…if you don’t want to read my opinions, I would skip the rest of this post. :slight_smile:

Ok…I am going go scramble a few letters so this post can be easily skipped.

Xcvnhvgycfuycghljhvfxhjgbjkvgfuchnkvjghblhjcghvljkjfyckhjbkghbilnjk
Vmghcgvvjgycgfjxhgfvhjlbjkvgfjvljhbjk.jbhlvgcjfcfjcfcgvhbjbjnjnknknknib.

:slight_smile:

I keep reading that victims of sexual assault should go to the police. What really happens when a victim goes to the police? How many rapists are arrested? How many are convicted?

I read that sometimes victims don’t want to go to the police and that’s true…

But what happens when victims do go to the police?

The book is a little disturbing. One thing I found interesting was sometimes the University of Montana did a better job than the police or the district attorney’s office. Did better in gathering evidence. Chapter 8 for example.

Many times, the police don’t believe the victims. Then …when the police do believe the victims…the prosecuters don’t want to prosecute.

In this town, we have women who go to the police… And about 10 percent of the cases are pursued…

This is how it is at Florida State too. I am pretty sure this is how it is all over the place.

We had a prosecuter who bragged about her conviction rates…but she turned down 90 percent of the cases :slight_smile: It 's true…we don’t really get her side in the book…but the math is there. :wink:

Anyway, if people are going to suggest victims should go to the police, shouldn’t that be a viable option that actually works for a victim?

So much depends on who the police are and who the prosecuters are and who the judge is. You get the wrong person dealing with your case…and you are done.

If fewer than 3 percent of rapists are convicted, is going to the police a good solution for victims?

One of the cases in the book, the guy confessed, and the victim still went through hell during the legal proceedings.

Does the adversarial legal system really discover the truth? When lawyers are deliberating distorting facts and concentrating on irelevant issues to manipulate a jury, do we really get just verdicts?

This guys lies. That guy lies. And we end up with the truth. I don’t remember that formula when I took a logic class back in the 1980’s. :slight_smile:

I read that the victim reported the case a year to the police a year after it happened so the case should not be taken seriously. There are some explanations. A victim decides she doesn’t want to prosecute, but then something triggers her memory, her fears, her anxiety…

Something like running into the assaulter months later can trigger very strong feelings and cause the victim to change her mind about pursuing a case legally. Being taunted by an accuser and his friends…reading or being told lies…can cause a victim to change her mind about pursuing a case. Concern for future victims can cause a victim to change her mind about a case.

I like the book.

We have a long way to go with how we deal with sexual assault in this country…and there isn’t an easy solution.

12

I’m about a quarter of the way through. It’s a fast read, but I had to stop to take a break because it made me angry and depressed.

13

dstark, I hadn’t heard of the book, but after reading your post, I went to my library website and placed a hold on it.

14

Although Krakauer is a good story teller, not planning on reading this. There’s been tons of exposes like this one on this topic. They have generated lots of heat, but little light. Some context on this might be in order:

  1. According to the U.S. DOJ, the incidence of rape in the U.S. over the past several decades has declined by 50-85%. So we are WAY WAY WAY better off on this than ever before. While any rape is terrible, as a society we've never been in better shape on this. As noted in #3 below, prevention of rape is massively better than trying to adjudicate the rapes that unfortunately do happen.
  2. The data says that there is nowhere near the incidence of rape on campus as has been widely claimed in the media. It is a problem for sure, but it is not the EPIDEMIC!!!!!!! that many claim. The risk on campus and off campus isn't much different according to the data.
  3. Most rapes between acquaintences are simply unprove-able and always will be. That is unavoidably the nature of the situation -- in private, behind closed doors, only two people there, consent is a complete defense, and there's almost never dispositive evidence. Then add in the huge influence of drugs and alcohol on these situations. Basically, even the best police department in the world will be unable to prove and prosecute most acquaintence rapes. Completely dumb to think that colleges would be able to do any better. So the best thing colleges can do is try to prevent rapes in the first place from happening. And then mitigating damage once an incident occurs. While adjudication is still going to be necessary, adjudication is usually going to fail. Do the best you can on that, but recognize your biggest effort should be focused on something much more useful than adjudication.

Last, teach your daughters to protect themselves!!! The Missoula incident is yet another example.

Gal tells the quarterback (while drunk) one day “I would do you anytime.” Next day, the gal invites the QB to come over to the gal’s house to watch a movie in her room on her bed. Presumably the QB is there only to indulge in his passion for avant garde cinema??? Kissing, then removing clothes, then the gal rolls on top of the guy. Then things go bad according to the gal. Although she claims forcible rape, she does not make enough of a fuss so that her roommate in the next room can hear anything.

That’s pretty risky behavior by the girl if she in fact isn’t interested in having sex. And there’s 10 different easy ways that rape/incident could have been avoided. That’s not victim blaming; that’s just common sense.

15

@northwesty, you mention teaching our daughters to protect themselves. Nowhere do you mention teaching the young men in our lives to control themselves, to respect women, to ask for consent??

Also, do you have some links to the data you reference above?

16

One of the best things you can do to prevent rape is to properly prosecute the rapes that do “happen” as @northwesty describes it, putting perpetrators in prison, because each one is usually responsible for numerous sexual assaults.

17

That’s right! Teach your daughter not to spend time with her dear friend, who has been her friend since she was five, whom she regards as a big brother. He might rape her while she’s asleep. Don’t bother teaching your son not to rape his friend who he refers to as his little sister, though.

Don’t bother to teach your son not to have sex with someone who told him no three separate times, either. If she ever said yes, that means yes in perpetuity. Oh, yeah, teach your daughters that-- if they ever say yes, that means yes forever in every possible situation. Discover that the room that you were thinking of having sex in has other people in it? Sorry, you said yes, so you can’t say no now.

And don’t teach your sons and his friends not to gang rape. That would be a good thing not to teach them.

Men can’t control themselves. Teach your daughters just to stay away from them.

18

The MT gal had a male roommate in the next room, just a few feet away, while the incident was happening. She didn’t make enough noise to alert that roommate of something gone wrong. But then sent a text message to the roommate after it was all over.

I’ve taught my daughters that they if they don’t want to be in a situation, don’t put yourself in a situation. But if you are in a situation, make loud noise and break things. Sending a text message five feet to the next room after the incident is over tells me the gal (who surprisingly was not drunk) is either lying or pretty stupid.

19

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Rapes_per_1000_people_1973-2003.jpg

Not sure why such a big decline.

Could be that we all are actually doing a very good job teaching our sons and our daughters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#/media/File:BJS_Sexual_Assualt_Rates_1995-2013.png

No big difference between campus and non-campus. Both of which have been declining. Despite what Sen. Gillibrand says.

20

I plan to read it. My D was accepted to Montana and would have attended from 9/08 -5/12 so the story covers the period of time she would have been there.

I did try to convince her to attend an out of state school from the several she was accepted and I get a sick feeling knowing I could have sent her there.