With all the campus rape threads, nobody is reading Missoula by John Krakauer?

Kristin Pabst tried to delay the publication of the book. Despite not having seen it, she, with her usual passion for the truth (none-- she’s a liar), declared that the book was based on “half-truths, omissions, inaccuracies, unsupported conclusions and, sold as non-fiction narrative, constitutes one-sided journalism.”

The U.S. Department of Justice investigated University of Montana, the Missoula Police Department and the Missoula County Attorney’s Office for their treatment of rape, and discovered egregious flaws, such as not prosecuting the case above, where there was video of the guy drugged the woman, as well as not prosecuting cases where the accused guy confessed. The police and the university then reached an agreement with the DOJ to change their practices, but the County Attorney fought any agreement and sued the DOJ.

One thing I liked about the book is we can see why the school decided what it decided… We can see the reasoning.

What was the guy doing with the bloody pants? The guy didn’t have an explanation why he had a woman’s bloody pants. I think an explanation is in order. :slight_smile:

The top two prosecuters are awful. I guess that’s why the number 1 prosecuter did not want the DOJ involved.

One thing I liked about the book was its getting us into the minds of the women.

For example, we have a woman who said she’s been raped. During the alleged rape, she remained silent and still, even though there were other people, her friends, within earshot. She didn’t make enough of a fuss so that her friend in the next room could hear anything. And then, she didn’t go to the police to accuse him for over a year.

So, the usual suspects on CC will explain to me that because she didn’t make noise, and she didn’t go to the police for a year, she must be lying. She wasn’t raped. It was just drunk sex. She just regrets it. Over and over, I’ve seen exactly those comments. The usual suspects “know” for sure that women who don’t make noise during their rape weren’t raped, because there is no such thing as being petrified by fear. They “know” that if a woman doesn’t go to the police the second she gets free of her rapist, it wasn’t a real rape. Or, at least, they are sure that it’s not worth even investigating such accusations, because it’s all he-said, she-said, and who knows what actually happened, and it’s just drunk sex, and she probably just regrets it.

Fortunately, the police officer who took her case wasn’t so lazy. He investigated. The rapist confessed.

I learned three things:
**

  1. If someone tells you that an accuser can’t have been raped because she didn’t make noise, they don’t know what they are talking about. Don’t listen to them.

  2. If someone tells you an accuser can’t have been raped because she didn’t accuse immediately, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Don’t listen to them.

  3. If someone tells you it’s not worth investigating an acquaintance rape because it’s all he-said, she-said, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Don’t listen to them.**

CF, you are absolutely correct.

What you wrote is a very important part of the book.

To read what women are really thinking and feeling was very informative.

@tom1944, @dstark,

I’m a UM alum from 2010, and I can tell you that a) this book/this horrific experience doesn’t represent the whole experience of UM, and b) rape/sexual assault is hardly a UM-only problem. I research sexual assault, and I can tell you that, sadly, the issues described in this book are prevalent on pretty much every college campus and that issues with sexual assault prosecution (or lack thereof) are present across the country. On one hand, I’m glad that this book is encouraging more discussion of sexual assault, both in college and in the league system in general, and I do strongly agree that the Missoula prosecutor’s office deserved to be called out for, among other things, blatantly ignoring the DOJ. On the other, I cringe at the thought of my alma marter–which I loved and which gave me an amazing education and social experience but readily acknowledge isn’t perfect–being thought of only as “rape school” and as the only–or worst–rape school, because these are national issues and sadly, pervasive ones. Like I said, I’m not trying to excuse anything that happened–I found it horrifying to follow in the media and completely believe that there are things both the university and city should be strongly called out on and censured/reprimanded for–but I also know that it’s not a problem unique to this one school or city or all the school or city is.

Since graduating, I’ve attended two other universities, one for masters degree and one for my PhD, and of the three, I can say UM had the most open and frank discussions of sexual assault and other issues–it was, at least at the student and faculty level, very willing to engage in discussion, dialogue, and change about social issues, including sexual assault, in way that my other institutions haven’t been. For example, one (public) university I attended was blatantly homophobic, to the point where faculty, staff, and students mocked anything other than heterosexuality in class and this was considered normal and NBD, and don’t ever say anything against it, because that’s the culture. You couldn’t even bring up an issue to be discussed or protested or called out, and at UM, it was more common to see that than not, Of course, there were those who worship the football team as demigods at UM, but again, that’s hardly unique to UM.

http://jezebel.com/5908472/my-weekend-in-americas-so-called-rape-capital

I don’t know if you’ve read the book, @_psych, and if you research sexual assault, there’s probably not much that would be new for you in the book. But Krakauer is explicit that he believes Missoula to be, sadly, representative of many other colleges and communities. He remarks that the number of sexual assaults reported to the Missoula police in the time period, some 350, was a little lower than the average. He is definitely NOT calling out Missoula as uniquely bad.

Krakauer also is honest that researching the book was an epiphany for him. Rape was not on his radar until he learned that a young family friend had been raped. She’d been raped as a teenager or young woman, not revealed it, and then as a result of the trauma from the rape she’d behaved in sexually dangerous ways and ended up eventually being raped again. Finally she decided she needed to tell people.

That revelation led Krakauer to discover that numerous women of his acquaintance had been raped, including members of his own family, and he had known nothing of it. His point is that it’s easy to think you don’t know anyone who has been raped, just as 15 years ago it was easy to think you didn’t know gay people, but that’s just because they haven’t told you, not because none of your friends and family have been raped (or are gay).

Well, sure. And that’s why there is no point in calling out the prosecutor in particular, or anyone else for that matter. If you look at the the material the book deals with, nearly everyone’s behavior could bear improvement.

People who read this and try to find a smoking gun are in for a disappointment as everything is a bit warm.

@Alh, thanks for the link. The comments following the article were also very good.

@Psych_, I agree with everything you wrote. It is good to get a point of view from somebody who has studied the issue and has gone to UM and other schools. I appreciate your post.

Yes there is. If one wants to effect change, one has to start somewhere, putting pressure on some bad actors. Don’t you think Kirsten Pabst now knows that people’s eyes are on her and she’d better shape up?

Just as we can say that police brutality against young black men is a problem nationwide, and still call for the indictment of the six officers who had custody of Freddie Gray when he died, so we can say the justice system does a bad job of handling rape cases nationwide, and still call out individuals who don’t prosecute rapes when there is persuasive evidence. If we want change, we need to demand change in individual cases.

Hellooooo…

As I mentioned earlier, she just got elected despite an avalanche of negative press. You seem to be unable to understand that some people agree with her.

Many people’s agreement with her starts and ends with her getting the Montana Grizzly’s quarterback acquitted so he could play for the team. That doesn’t mean they’ll be equally happy that she doesn’t prosecute other rapists.

@“Cardinal Fang” , I haven’t read the book–though I’m a fan of his and would be interested in doing so when I’m not, well, doing my own sexual assault/trauma research. I believe that he isn’t calling out UM/Missoula exclusively, but even on this thread, two posters have specifically said that they now would never live in Missoula/send a kid to UM, and people calling Missoula the “rape capital” (based on what evidence???). Again, I think that there are things that both the city/county and the school deserve to be called out on and strongly reprimanded for, but I think you could find those at pretty much every university and every city, sadly. UM as a whole is definitely a hippie school, with a surprisingly strong bent to social justice, and again, a place much more open to actual dialogue about these hard issues than any other place I’ve lived. It also gave me a wonderful education, and I never went to single Griz game! I just hate to see my alma marter seen as THE problem rather than an example of a larger, national issue. I also dislike the implication that pretty much every woman at UM is sexually assaulted; yes. too many are (and one would be too many!) but again, that’s pretty much every school, sadly. FWIW, I also think UM had better, more comprehensive sexual assault and survivor resources than many, many schools I looked at my research. Again, I’m not saying the school is above criticism or should be–just saying that holding it up as the one and worst bad apple isn’t factual.

@Psych_,

You responded to my post and I responded by saying I agree with you.

I am going to be very clear.
Missoula is not the rape capital of this country. The author of the book says Missoula is not the rape capital of the country. Missoula was used as an example.

I am never moving to Missoula for many reasons. Not my type of place. If other people love the place, great!

Anything you want to share on the sexual assault issue on college campuses, I would love to read it. Some people think sexual assaults on college campuses are not a big issue. I don’t think that way.

A poster referred to a Jezebel article, [My Weekend in America’s So-Called Rape Capital](My Weekend In America's So-Called 'Rape Capital'). The writer of the article didn’t agree that Missoula was rape capital, and neither did the poster. I don’t think posters here are holding up Missoula as uniquely bad.

I spent a couple of days in Missoula when I was riding from the West Coast to the Canadian Rockies. Nice place. I got the vibe of a lot of bright-eyed, bushy-tailed kids living there.

  • As its citizens claim, Missoula is just like any other college town. What is happening in Missoula can — and is — happening all around us.*

It is happening everywhere. We don’t necessarily see it because we don’t expect to see it. If we can’t believe rape is a reality, we just can’t see it and instead explain what is happening as something else.

I really like #47.

I’m reading…

I lent out the book so I don’t remember the name of the dean at UM who really cared about the victims.

Also, the police officer who got the confession on tape did a great job.

I don’t know where somebody said almost every woman was sexually assaulted at UM.

A school that has social justice as a theme sounds very good to me.

A hippie culture doesn’t bother me. I went to Berkeley. :slight_smile:

psych: Your quote reminded me of the jezebel article from a while back. I thought I was backing you up.

One of the most interesting things to me in the article was all the quotes explaining rape away. I think most of us here agree there is a surprising amount of that going on nationwide.

@Psych You have every right to defend your school. Krakauer definitely did say that he wanted to bring attention to the problem of rape, acquaintance rape, because he became aware of the issue in his personal life. He used Missoula/UM as an example to describe how specific accusations and subsequent legal issues do play out in real life, laying out an argument that goes from specific to the general. I read the book, but never got a sense that is was a hippie school at all. It seemed like football was the dominant culture.