Because a woman tells the truth doesn’t mean the woman wins the case.
Rape kits are taken many times when there is acquaintance rape.
@hunt, I know you didn’t read the book. This women went through a rape kit. She had an alcohol level of .219 two hours after the alleged assault. That’s very high.
http://www.thecitizenswhocare.org/brookings/drinkingtoomuch.html
Sure, but they are of very limited use if the defense is consent. That’s what we’ve been talking about.
I’m sure Krakauer’s book has examples of miscarriage of justice. I’m simply not persuaded that a really significant number of additional convictions in acquaintance rape cases will result from changed policies.
I got the book at the library yesterday and read the first six chapters. I should be able to finish it this weekend. Krakauer does his usual - puts a face to the conjectures and statistics. Those of us who followed the stories at the time already know the outcomes before reading the book.
I guess the one that bothers me the most (it ALL bothers me, very disturbing) is Kelsey Belknap, gang-raped by UM football players, then tests .219 BAC hours after the rapes. Her BAC would have been in the neighborhood of .30 during, yet prosecutors felt they had no case.
@hunt, significant? How do you measure significant?
We are talking about justice for victims. You don’t want to see an innocent person convicted. Ok.
What about the victims? SOL? Where is their justice?
Magnetron, yes. That case is bothersome. Very disturbing.
I enter this conversation with great trepidation, mostly because there are strong ties to one of the cases in the book in my town and my kids’ high school. The case somewhat divided our town as it did Missoula. But some things are greatly disturbing me in this thread. I’ve talked to my D repeatedly about this book and its issues. She tells me that the ‘freeze’ reaction is totally understandable, mostly because one is shocked at what is/might be happening. Add to that some alcohol (because you cannot discount the effect of alcohol) and actions can become even more puzzling from the outside. She went to a Greek function (and spare me the opinion that being in the Greek system already makes her stupid; I was not in a sorority, do not like them, but she loves hers) and her date basically told her afterward that she ‘owed’ him a blowjob because he took her on a date. She says she should have yelled at him and set him straight, but instead she just got up (from the couch in the room where they were; public space) and left. She was just so gobsmacked that he would think that way. She has not had any close friends who have been assaulted but can absolutely see how a girl would react in a way we would not expect. The ‘rules’ of how we handle rape simply do not always apply to acquaintance rape. We need to educate schools, law enforcement, prosecutors and kids about that. The problem is that we are all still floundering around trying to figure out how to do that beyond, “Don’t get raped, girls” and “Please don’t rape people, boys”.
I feel that Krakauer did not explore the problem of alcohol enough. I read that publication was somewhat rushed. I do think that the book is an indictment of Missoula’s county attorney, but not necessarily the school (which tried to do a good job imo). And the issue of football— ugh. I love football and live in a football CRAZY college town, and these issues are very concerning.
Yes, if there’s not enough evidence to convict the person. That’s a tragedy, but not exactly an injustice. We have a justice system that protects the accused, and there’s a price to pay for having a system like that. We could have a different system–with a different price.
@hunt, evidence has to be discovered, gathered, and examined fairly before we know there isn’t enough evidence.
You have to expect a pushback when people think they are getting screwed.
@jaylynn, your daughter’s date’s ‘enitlement’ is part of the problem. Thanks for sharing. 
Yes.
Yes. We do.
@Hunt, police officers and prosecutors who believe like you are the problem. If they’re convinced that it’s not worth investigating, then they won’t investigate, and rapists will go free who could have been convicted.If they won’t prosecute, then rapists will go free who could have been convicted.
In the Jameis Winston situation, there was video, but the lazy police didn’t bother to find. They didn’t bother to interview Winston until weeks later. Evidence existed, but because the police were like you, they didn’t find it, and a rapist may have gone free.
In Missoula, the prosecutor refused to try cases that had confessions! There’s still some low hanging fruit.
I actually think that’s pretty good advice extrapolated out to tell men and women the things they can personally do to keep from being involved in a rape situation…I don’t see what’s wrong with this advice? Are parents NOT talking to their kids about “street” smarts anymore?
Cardinal Fang, I’m trying hard not to characterize people “like you.” Perhaps you’d like to put that a different way.
@momofthreeboys , it’s not bad advice. But it can get extrapolated to “Don’t get raped so don’t wear a short skirt, don’t have a drink ever, don’t flirt, don’t go on a date with someone you’re interested in unless you want to have sex and don’t let someone know you like them because you’re sending the wrong signals.” A lot of that is not fair, and not realistic. Schools are trying to teach students that rapists are not jumping out of bushes, they could be buying you a beer. And we need to teach boys that porn sex is not the norm and what they should expect. A girl can change her mind and you have to stop. You can be irritated and pissed about that but you have to stop. Schools are trying; both of my kids’ colleges have required courses for incoming freshmen. But it’s still just the start and a drop in the bucket.
Agreed, schools have approved dramatically in educating students about rape as @jaylynn states. However, think of the level of courage needed for a young girl to actually report. I, for one, could never do it, even understanding that I would be protecting the next victim. Young men also understand, for the most part, that they are highly unlikely to get caught.
I read it and have to say, and I LOVE Jon Krakauer, have purchased and read everything the man has ever written, it seemed a bit “rushed” (I read that he did, in fact, rush through the edits to get it to print while the whole UVA thing was still a thing) and . . . I hate to say this, but found parts of it pretty biased. Yes, there were horrifying crimes committed against incapacitated women. No question. However, he seems to think that the police and the prosecutors had some malevolent motive in not prosecuting some cases. Having been a prosecutor, I can state that it is very difficult to prosecute a case and secure a conviction "beyond a reasonable doubt"of any rape. I don’t think everyone he belittled in the book was acting out of some insane devotion to the Grizzlies, which seems to be the implication. His bias was evident and made me question other elements of the book, such as the apparently conflicting “statistics” on false rape reports. Again, before you attack me 
know that I am not suggesting rape doesn’t happen on campus or that there weren’t horrific crimes committed at issue in this book…I just think the overlying tone was a “conspiracy” or “good old boys club” and I do not think that was the case, as Krakauer suggests, with every single rape allegation at this (or any) college.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a “rape kit”? Is it some sort of test to see if a woman has been raped?
@Albert69 Forensic samples taken at hospital/rape crisis center. Standard kit is swabs from genitals and mouth as well as any hair or fibers collected from victim’s body.
There are a couple of different kinds of evidence that can be obtained through the use of a rape kit and the accompanying examination. First (and usually foremost) is evidence that sexual intercourse occurred and DNA and other evidence that can identify the other person. As noted above, this is not very helpful in a case in which the accused person admits the intercourse but alleges that it was consensual.
But there can be other evidence, such as bleeding, bruising, and other injuries that would support claims of nonconsensual sex. This would be some of the strongest physical evidence that would be available in such a case.
Kibbles,
Why was there such a delay in interviewing the 4 football players about the alleged gang rape? Isn’t time important? Why did it take 2 years to get the result of the rape kit.
In another case, there was a guy who took home bloody pants. Is that possible evidence?
I appreciate your sharing experiences with rape cases.
Which stories in the book had the wrong outcome to you, if any?
I’m trying to figure out what praiseworthy motive Pabst could have for going to the college hearing and lying. Is it just a coincidence that she went to college hearing and lied for a football player? What was she doing there in the first place.
I also have a problem with people who testify at the sentencing hearing who know nothing of the crime the person confessed to. Who cares if he was a diligent football player who went to church? The dude raped his childhood friend.
^ agree. Pabst’s behavior was odd at best, reprehensible at worst. And Johnson’s attorney as well. Ugh.
Hunt, what are you objecting to? You say (quoted below) that if police and prosecutors pursued more cases, they wouldn’t get many more convictions. I say that judging by the Missoula case, that’s not remotely true: police and prosecutors are failing to pursue cases that have confessions or video evidence of rape, where they could get convictions. I say that police and prosecutors are doing this because they believe, like you, that no more convictions could be had if they pursued more cases.
I say that you’re wrong and they’re wrong. The result of all this disbelief is that the large majority of cases aren’t even being reported to the cold, disbelieving police-- and some of those unreported cases, if handled better, would have resulted in a rapist being put behind bars. And some of the cases that were reported to the police, if handled better, would have resulted in rapists being put behind bars.