Woman Beheaded at Work in Oklahoma

Parent Cafe
101

<p>Arab tribalism pre-dates Arab religious differences. So one way to look at Shia/Sunni disputes is that they are merely the latest manifestation of conflicts which go back much further than Islam.</p>

<p><a href=“The Middle East's Tribal DNA :: Middle East Quarterly”>http://www.meforum.org/1813/the-middle-easts-tribal-dna&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>To quote the movie version of T.E.Lawrence:</p>

<p>"So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are. "</p>

<p>I’ve long been interested in the question of why the peoples of the Middle East are so determined to stay stuck in the middle ages while the rest of the world moves on without them. IMO that’s one of the foundational questions of this problem, maybe the foundational question.</p>

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<p>Women being killed or raped, tortured, and sold by Boko Haram or ISIL is immaterial. One American journalist who already was kidnapped and ransomed previously and went to the area knowing full well of the risks, getting kidnapped again and beheaded, now THAT matters.</p>

<p>Mistreatment of women is not a tenet of Islam. Unless you want to argue that mistreatment of women (and children) is rampant in the Old Testament, and therefore is a tenet of Judaism and Christianity as well. </p>

<p>It’s a shame that there are those not educated enough to understand the influence of tribalism and culture beyond Islam in things like honor killings and not letting women go to school or own property or otherwise participate in society.</p>

<p><a href=“Islams Women - Women in Quran and Sunnah”>http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/women_in_quran_and_sunnah.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Does Islam Approve Of Honour Killings Of Women?”>Questions About Islam;
(that is, don’t do honor killing, let Allah judge the ones who are accused of committing adultery - a la “judge not lest you be judged” and “let God judge sinners”)</p>

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<p>" Mistreatment of women is not a tenet of Islam. Unless you want to argue that mistreatment of women (and children) is rampant in the Old Testament, and therefore is a tenet of Judaism and Christianity as well."</p>

<p>Maybe one could argue that. Then again, in Judaism and Christianity, it is not acted upon, is not preached, and is not government policy or law.</p>

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<p>@busdriver11 - Re Post #98:</p>

<p>Please note there is a reason I used the word violence. Stoning is violence, as is gentile mutilation and actions of that kind. However, I do think that outside of violence, it is very important to thread carefully in dictating to other people’s cultures. </p>

<p>My post was more focused on general cultural behaviors. Issues, such as arranged marriages, not being in a company of unrelated men, no driving etc, while I agree they are rather unequal and confining practices, my dictating to a culture to change that just starts to get into ethnocentric territory of telling others that their culture should be like. There are cultures, other than Western culture, with practices, which we would not do or condone. Those differences, however, do not make those other cultures automatically illegitimate if we do not like or support their practices. </p>

<p>It would difficult to see how far this ethnocentric dictating should extend. I think of in France where my French friend routinely gave his 12 and 14 years-olds a glass of wine at dinner; sometimes the kids had two glasses, albeit slightly smaller ones. Such a practice here in the US would land parents in jail, if someone reported that kids were drinking alcohol every night, and his parents were giving it to them. </p>

<p>Go to the Scandinavian countries where it is common practice to leave one’s baby in his or her carriage outside along the walk, completely unattended, as the mom or dad shops in the store for an 1/2 hour or sometimes longer. Practiced here, these parents would be charged with child neglect and the baby probably taken away for while. </p>

<p>Additionally, kids are allowed to ride public transportation by themselves for some rather long distances from like age 7. Not something we can even fathom here, and this again would be seen as child neglect and endangerment. I could go on with examples.</p>

<p>Most importantly, it is a false assumption to say that because I thread carefully in demanding change in other cultures and in what they should practice in some arena, also means I agree with what they do. Those two things are not even related, and one action does not lead to the support of the other. Disagreeing, even vehemently, with something is very different than thinking one has the right to dictate that someone else change what one does not like.</p>

<p>My point is simple - cultures practice different things, and short of unadulterated violence, it is just not as simple for me reach the conclusion that what others are doing is totally wrong for them, even if I completely disagree with the practices and would not employ said practices myself.</p>

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<p>I think that the best name that we could give these fanatics is radicals who believe (or who say they believe) that they’re mindsets are truly Islam. The English language doesn’t seem to have any better term for it as of now. And yes, I do not believe that these people are truly following Islam, as I have stated previously, but that wouldn’t have answered @awcntdb 's question.</p>

<p>@busdriver11 The middle east does not cover most predominantly Muslim countries ([url=<a href=“http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/07/worlds-muslim-population-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/]here[/url”>World Muslim population more widespread than you might think | Pew Research Center]here[/url</a>] are statistics on the distribution of Muslims around the world from 2010), and most radical countries (such as Saudi Arabia) are run by tyrants. Their rule does not necessarily reflect the views of the majority within their nations. Also, being tyrants, they are able to spread propaganda and block out anything that does not agree with their views. You also have to question the conclusions that someone may come up with in such an environment. If someone only ever has access to one view on a particular subject, I wouldn’t trust them to be an expert on it.
Which leads up to my next point- as I said previously, we don’t define Islam by what most Muslims do. I try to understand Islam. What other people do is independent of that. </p>

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Arranged marriages and not being in the company of unrelated members of the opposite gender in general are not unequal if they’re applied to both genders, and everyone willingly complies.</p>

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<p>And you explained exactly the point I was making. </p>

<p>In western culture, even if everyone agrees, many, if not most, would see arranged marriages, as unequal in terms of female rights for the female does not get to choose her husband. </p>

<p>Yet, I have seen exactly as you state - where everyone accepted and compiled. However, the young lady’s western friends still could not wrap their heads around the fact the the bride had never met her husband until just before the wedding and they (Western females) thought there was no way this was being done freely. There was nothing bride could say to convince them otherwise.</p>

<p>Thanks for answering my question. Understood. </p>

107

<p>*Side note: I know this thread isn’t about arranged marriages, but I would just like to make a few things clear. I have posted this previously on another forum: “…many people don’t even understand what it means or how diverse the processes of arranged marriages depending on the culture, socioeconomic background, etc… I can only think of two things that all those who practice arranged marriage have in common: we believe that the the parents and child of both parties must support the marriage (in contrast to non-arranged marriages where spouses’ families have little, if any, involvement) and we believe that premarital romantic relationships should be limited (to what extent varies greatly).”</p>

<p>I find that my generation is generally more open about these things. When I tell people that I want an arranged marriage, they believe me. Sometimes they ask questions and realize that what I’m talking about isn’t at all like what they were imagining :)</p>

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You’re very welcome. </p>

108

<p>"Maybe one could argue that. Then again, in Judaism and Christianity, it is not acted upon, is not preached, and is not government policy or law. "</p>

<p>Read up on John List, and tell me that Christians do not act on it. Or even Westboro. Why do people insist that those people are not representative of Christians, but these terrorists are?</p>

<p>Child brides are illegal in many Arab countries according to government law and mainstream clerics, but they still occur. Honor killings are illegal as well in most Arab countries, and they still occur too.</p>

<p>I don’t think you can use the outliers, even if there seem to be more outliers lately, to define a religion. Or the fact that most Christians and Jews live in countries with democratic traditions, that would be less tolerant of aberrant behavior.</p>

<p>This story makes an interesting point - how religion is coupled with the American way:
<a href=“U.S. Accuses 2 Rabbis of Kidnapping Husbands for a Fee - The New York Times”>U.S. Accuses 2 Rabbis of Kidnapping Husbands for a Fee - The New York Times;

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<p>" Read up on John List, and tell me that Christians do not act on it. Or even Westboro. Why do people insist that those people are not representative of Christians, but these terrorists are?"</p>

<p>Because you’re talking a difference of scale. Teeny tiny, rare aberrations, that are despised by all do not compare to what’s going on now. You don’t have people all over the world, flocking by the tens of thousands to the Westboro Baptist Church. Virtually every violent conflict in the world right now has Muslims on one side or both.</p>

<p>This is obvious, and always annoys me when people try to equate a couple of nutcases with something that is becoming commonplace. And then they bring up, “But look at what the Christians did during the Crusades!” Let’s just forget the last one was over 700 years ago.</p>

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<p>As we think about ethnic conflict, tribalism, horrific violence, and ‘being stuck in the Middle Ages’, we really only have to look at the rise of Nazism to show that these sorts of things can happen in very modern, very educated, Christian societies. </p>

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<p><<<
Us (moderate) Muslims say that fanatics and the like are not true Muslims,
<<<</p>

<p>Is that because moderate Muslims have been influenced by Western culture? </p>

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<p>There are plenty of moderate Muslims who have had little to no exposure to “Western culture.” Today and in the past 1400 years.</p>

<p>Compassion and empathy are not solely the property of Western culture. Nothing is really solely the property of Western culture. Cultures involve various aspects, and chances are that those aspects are shared with other cultures. Western culture itself is very broad, considering that it contains the USA, Canada, most of Europe, Australia, etc. </p>

<p>Everyone is influenced by their culture. But in any instance, it’s unfair to say that a culture is the sole reason for an individual seeing or interpreting things in a certain way. You’ve got to give people more credit then that. People can choose to see things outside their cultural view, and most people at least acknowledge that their culture isn’t completely perfect and has its flaws.</p>

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<p>Going into Iraq without a good plan for the reconstruction was not a good move either. The failures in the first year of the reconstruction of Iraq lost all of the goodwill generated by removing Saddam and produced a lot of badwill, resulting in a much longer, more expensive, and less successful attempt at reconstruction than what could have been.</p>

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<p>Re: arranged marriages</p>

<p>Are arranged marriages where the persons to be married have final say in whether they will be married (i.e. no involuntary marriages) really that unusual? Such acts seem to be more parental matchmaking than anything else (common assumption among some younger immigrants is that when they go back to the ancestral country to visit their parents, potential spouses found by their parents will be visiting).</p>

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<p>A generation ago in the US, elementary school students of that age (or as young as 5) would walk non-trivial distances to school, or to the school bus stop. Now, it seems that parenting has become more helicopterish, so that even someone who lives next to the school would walk the kid to school.</p>

<p>Not sure if this has to do with the actual crime rate, which was higher a generation ago, although fear of crime may be higher than it was a generation ago.</p>

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<p>I am appalled by the amount of bigotry in this thread. Hard to believe it’s allowed to continue.</p>

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<p>What bigotry?</p>

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<p>I hate it when people make on line statement as well as insulting people without an explanation. No more than I call people stupid, idiot or whatevet name you can think off. Ok drivel then.</p>

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<p>*on line should be one line </p>

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<p>The Iraq invasion was the lesser of the two evils in my view. And unfortunately, since we cut and run early, look what we have now. ISIS would not have been able to get a foothold if US troops were still there in the 15K number that were recommended.</p>