Women would rather come across a bear than a man in the woods

Agree. It’s sad that unsolicited, unwanted advances have to be handled with such care.

When Laura Killingbeck meets a man while traveling alone in the wilderness she clearly states her first reaction isn’t fear, but “low level vigilance”. And for whatever reason, IF the man trips an alarm in her head a complex series of thoughts, feelings and anxiety occurs. She eloquently explains it:

I need to get away from the man. But I need to do it in a way that doesn’t anger him. This is the tricky bit. Men who lack social awareness or empathy often also lack other skills in emotional management. And usually, what men in these situations actually want is closeness. They’re trying to get closer to me, physically or emotionally, in the only way they know how. That combination of poor emotional skillsets and a desire to get closer is exactly what puts me in danger.

If I deny his attempts at closeness by leaving or setting a boundary, he could feel frustrated, rejected, or ashamed. If he doesn’t know how to recognize or manage those feelings, he’s likely to experience them as anger. And then I’m a solo woman stuck in a forest with an angry man, which is exactly what women are most afraid of.

There’s no time to think, so I operate on instinct. My task is ridiculously complex. I need to deescalate any signs of aggression, guide the man into a state of emotional balance, and exit the situation safely, all at once. This process requires all of my attention, energy, and intellect. It’s really hard.
*Note: I highlighted the parts I thought were important.

Now some may think Laura Killingbreck is wrong in her assessment of the men, who on rare occasions trip her intuition/alarm bell. But I applaud her for expressing her feelings, because I happen to believe it resonates with many women…and men can benefit from hearing it.

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I thought that her analysis was thoughtful and subtle.

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Did you ask her what she meant by that comment? It could be that her interpretation of “warm” was nurturing and a caretaker (which you note is not how you would have described the friend), and thus projecting that men in their 50s and 60s were wanting someone to take care of them. Alternatively, she could have been thinking that men in their 50s & 60s are interested in warm, inviting, and fun women (i.e. positive aspect of older guys) but that guys closer to her own age might have other priorities (perhaps appearance and potential for sexual activity).

Either way, I’m still not convinced that most women don’t think that most guys are good guys. Just because one might note some annoyances/shortcomings that might be more common in one gender than another doesn’t mean that you don’t think that person (or that gender) is still not a good egg on the whole. None of us are perfect. :slight_smile:

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Intersting. I will

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I will say that ALL the women I know who were widowed in their 50’s or before were remarried relatively quickly…within 2 years. Less true of those who were divorced but several of my divorced friends remarried.

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@AustenNut, I did not ask her, in part because of the snarky tone she used. I asked ShawWife and she had exactly the same interpretation that I did. ShawWife is much more emotionally astute than I – not only is her judgment excellent but she knows the assistant better.

The assistant knows the newly partnered woman’s son. I think she knows that the mom is not the caretaker type, though I’m not completely sure. I would say that she finds it easy to divide the world into oppressor and oppressed.

In the post-Me Too era, I am not sure that most younger women think most guys are basically good. But, I did a web search and did not find anything to support my instinct.

@maya54, our anecdotal data differs. We know quite a few divorced women and some widows, many of whom remain single. ShawWife just came back from an event in which women her age were talking about how horrible dating is. I think we only know one man who remains single, but his situation is complex (long-term separation but no divorce, children with disabilities, etc) and this has ended a few relationships.

A Pew Research Center’s Profile of Single Americans is consistent with our observation: “Among men, those younger than 30 are by far the most likely to be single: About half of men in this age group (51%) are single, compared with only 27% of those ages 30 to 49 and 50 to 64 and 21% of men 65 and older. Women, by contrast, are by far most likely to be single later in life – roughly half of women ages 65 and older are unpartnered (49%), while those ages 30 to 49 are the least likely to be single (19%).”

I’m trying to understand what you are trying to convey in the above post. I’ve highlighted the parts that confuse me. I actually find the belief that a man can commit a bad act/behavior due to the situation/societal context, but the man should somehow be absolved in any way of being labeled a “bad man” untenable.

In my book any man that would sexually assault/rape a woman…whether they’re in a fraternity or in the woods in Pakistan or some other context…is immutably “not a good man”. Jmo

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This thread reminded me of this book I just finished:

These women were not killed by bears.

It is mostly true crime, but the author covers the rise of the women’s outdoors movement and the history of this national park. But its emphasis on how beneficial and empowering being out in the wilderness is for women and how society responds to threats/harms to women was my main takeaway.

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@AustenNut, a propos yesterday’s exchange, I just ran into this article in Medium entitled The Truth is Most Men Aren’t Good Guys. It’s from Medium and I don’t know if you will be able to see it if you are not a subscriber to Medium.

I was only able to read the first couple of paragraphs because I do not have a Medium subscription. But I suspect that I was able to get the main thrust of her message (though perhaps it became more nuanced as it went on).

They view every kind of gender-based exploitation this way, even mundane household and relationship labor inequities.

As long as they’re not behaving like the worst predator you’ve seen on Dateline, they believe they’re a good guy deserving of our interest and affection. That every legitimate issue we raise awareness for is not only ■■■■■■■■, but actually persecuting them because they are so invested in maintaining their privilege.

Looking at the author’s other works, it definitely appears that she writes provocative work, or at least provocative titles. And she seems to conflate whether being a a good guy or a bad guy is not just in the realm of attacking/allowing others to attack and is including “mundane household and relationship labor inequities.” Additionally, I suspect that people in the three (and perhaps four) categories to the left would all intervene if they saw someone being attacked, even if they generally underestimate the issue or think that predation is an unfortunate fact of life.

I think that most people are good people. I think that nobody is perfect. Whether it is our tendency to criticize, or procrastinate, or being unwilling to train our eyes to the mess around us, or preferring to be a couch potato than out improving our health, or whatever it is, we all have shortcomings. To insinuate that people aren’t good people because they have shortcomings is…short-sighted.

It reminds me of the advice that is often given to single people who want a partner that has all of these wonderful qualities and scoff at wasting their time with someone who has areas for improvement. Well, if we want people to accept our own areas of improvement, we darn well better be willing to accept others’ weaknesses.

If this author’s take is what many people are really thinking, then I am very sad for them, and for society.

@AustenNut, I also believe that in our cultural context, most men would try to intervene if they saw a sexual assault happening even if they thought sexual assault was an unfortunate fact of life.

I do think cultural context matters, which is what I was saying, probably without enough clarity, to @88jm19. Cultural context does not excuse bad acts and I would never assert that some who commits sexual assault is not a bad man or that they should not be convicted and punished.

My assertion is actually quite different. I think the construct of dividing the world into bad men and not bad men is too simplistic. Men who behave in a manner consistent with our idea of a good men in one context might not do so in another context.

We use the term bad man to describe a trait. Psychologists have shown that people have a bias towards attribute other people’s actions to their character/traits and not to the situation.

One of my favorite social psychology experiments was based on the parable of the Good Samaratin. The authors, Darley and Batson, chose as their subjects students at the Princeton Theological Seminary – people that we would guess would be trying to be good people or good men (this seminar was done in the early 70s in Princeton and I’m guessing that the subjects were all or predominantly male, though that is irrelevant to my broader point). The thought was to pick a population in which the subjects would be thought of as folks trying to do good in the world – good people or good men.

The task they were going to perform was to give a speech on the Parable of the Good Samaratin to a group of undergraduates. In this parable, a man who has been beaten by robbers and is lying on the side of the road was just passed by from a two holy individuals—while a non-holy Samaritan took the time to stop and help the man out. The idea (I assume) is that true holiness comes from taking the time to stop and care for the injured man.

So, the subjects prep for this talk and then are told that it is time to walk over to give the lecture. There were three experimental conditions. Group 1 was told they had plenty of time and were early. Group 2 was told they were on time, but needed to head over so as not to be late. Group 3 was told that they were late and needed to get over as quickly as possible. The route to the talk was a path about four feet in width.

So far so good. On the way, the experimenters had a man lying across the path they would have to take to go to the lecture moaning, sick and clearly in need of help. To avoid helping him, the subjects would have to step over the man.

While 60% of the Group 1 subjects (early) stopped to help the man, only 45% of the Group 2 subjects (on-time) stopped and most remarkably only 10% of Group 3 subjects (late) stopped to help. 90% of the late subjects (seminary students who were thinking about the Parable of the Good Samaratin) stepped directly over a fallen man on the road to deliver a lecture about the meaning of the Parable of the Good Samaratin.

The point is that those things we tend to think of as traits (like good man or bad man or for that matter good woman or bad woman) do not predict behaviors on their own and the social situation or societal context often has more explanatory power. So, unless one has a very politically incorrect view that men raised in Pakistan or India (we could find other countries to fill in here) are more likely to be fundamentally (genetically) evil than men in the US, this would imply that the same men, if raised in Pakistan or India, would be more likely to commit sexual assault than had they been raised in the US. It is social and cultural context that reins in bad behavior.

The culture that Hitler helped establish in Germany enabled people one might otherwise have labeled as good to to turn Jews in or to kill them. People who get all of their information from very restricted channels may feel it is normal not to vaccinate their kids for measles or polio.

Part of what was so interesting Laurie Killingbeck’s article was the very subtle ways that she interpreted behavior in our cultural context and chose actions that worked in that context to deescalate.

If all works well, the virality of the bear v. man meme might reinforce our cultural norms that sexual assault is unacceptable behavior. [I suppose it could backfire as well].

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Agree - I learned a long time ago that people are grey - a good/bad binary in almost any context is reductive and generally unhelpful. Not to say that many acts are not egregious - just that people (and their backgrounds, traumas, etc.) are very complex.

That’s why I liked the article above from the woman hiker/biker so much- lots of recognition of that complexity.

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It was not “so interesting” to women. We do this all the time. It was very familiar to women readers.

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Agreed. I think what was interesting was how she articulated what I’m guessing most women probably do instinctively.

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One of these women went to college with me, just a year younger.

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I doubt it’s an instinct. It’s a skill we learn how to do it through both socialization and trial and error.

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I found the article interesting too. I’ve lived a fortunate (and it seems unusual and sheltered) life where I have not had to worry much about intentions of men. Probably due to marrying my college sweetheart, working at the same place.) Appreciated the insights.

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The book does a great job really telling as much of their story as possible. These women were on the cusp of their launching their lives. Truly horrible and heartbreaking.

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So much worse than a bear. Thankfully, this monster has just been sentenced to life in prison. He should have been put away at least 15 years ago. It’s horrifying that the climbing community and the legal system minimized his behavior for so long.

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He told people he was going to murder someone’s 9 year old twins-and NOTHING came from that???

This kind of guy never stops, is completely resistant to rehabilitation, takes no accountability. He may indeed be bipolar, but he also sounds like a sociopath, quite frankly. Those in the climbing community who repeatedly defended him need to do some self reflection about their willingness to turn a blind eye simply beause someone is talented.

These kinds of abusers don’t stop until they are incarcerated or die. Very glad to hear he will be put away for a long time. Hopefully he doesn’t get out on parole, ever.

ETA:
“While in custody in his latest case, prosecutors said, Barrett made hundreds of phone calls and threatened to use violence and retributive lawsuits against his accusers.”

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Yeah, I stopped reading about him when my blood pressure started going through the roof.

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