This is it.
3 Likes
As a male, a hiker, a husband, a father to a daughter and someone who used to teach decision analysis, I donât see why this is a controversial preference in the least, though there is likely one probability that is not being factored in to the analysis. There is some probability that a bear encountered on a hiking trail will do you harm. I hike in Canadian Rockies and have come across grizzly bears both in my car and on the trail and the harm, if it occurs, will be catastrophic, but the bear will likely avoid you if you are not in between it and its cubs or the area where it is eating berries while fattening up for hibernation. There is some probability that a man encountered on the trail will do you harm. There is probably greater variation in the harm that a man would do. However, we probably have a social norm against taking the defensive measures against a man that would be appropriate. In any case, if one thinks that the probability of significant harm is higher with a man than a bear, then one should prefer the bear.
The woman on the trail canât know if you are one of the bad ones or one of the good ones. So, my knowledge that Iâm not one of the bad guys is irrelevant to her. And, Iâm stunned by the culture that enables the Pellicot case and its apologists. So, maybe some of the good guys would be bad guys in a different cultural environment (frat parties, for example, or France, or many Muslim countries, where women being out alone is considered by some an invitation to rape).
The only thing that I think is being conflated is the probability of seeing a man on a trail is a lot higher than the probability of seeing a bear on a trail. Even if the probability of a man doing harm is lower, you will see 100s of them and only one bear. Even if the probability a bear would damage you is higher than the probability that a man would, the probability that one or more of the men you encounter on the trail is a bad guy may well be higher than the probability that the the probability that the bear will harm you.
I donât love the world that we live in in many dimensions. We can try to change it. But, we have to adapt to current conditions. I insisted that my 5â9" daughter take self-defense classes. No such insistence for my 6â4" son. My son asked if could go to Bonnaroo with some of his buddies and I said no problem. My daughter asked later and I said, âLetâs see. You and your waif-like 17 yo friend want to go to a music festival where beer and drugs are basically provided on demand, well if you can convince your brother and his buddies to join you, I will have no problem.â I did not want to say this, but I recognize that the probability of sexual assault in that environment is pretty high. Fortunately, ShawD understood that I was not being sexist, but sadly needed to look out for her safety.
18 Likes
Thank you.
7 Likes
It does. But I maintain that very few people, especially in the US, are paying attention.
There were many points made in the essay.
No
I certainly hope no one is relying on condoms to keep them safe from STDâs.
I would argue millennia, not centuries. But even if only centuries, the author suggests that this case and the preferred verdict could have been the turning point in this attitude. How likely was this case ever to reverse the inertia of this evolutionary-driven attitude? Zero, I would argue.
And this cultural attitude you mention that has been around for centuries endured with the approval of womenâhalf the population. People like the author are partially responsible for perpetuating this attitude through choices like having children with physically abusive men after having passed on non-abusive men that werenât fun enough. That was my original point, and I firmly believe that.
I donât think anyone disagrees that women face a lot of things, including certain types of violence, that men donât face. And I understand why women would prefer to face a bear rather than a man in the woods. Completely reasonable and understandable.
OMG you really donât get it. Do you have a wife, a daughter, a sister, a mother who may be able to explain to you that there is no excuse ever, ever, ever for what these men did?
11 Likes
But this is Bayesian: the result of your probability of harm analysis depends on whether you take the question literally (a bear or a man, ie one and only one of each, with 100% or 0% probability) or are considering the real world situation where there are â100s of men and only one bearâ (and actually very rarely will you even see a single bear).
2 Likes
Is this that âthose females pass on us ânice guysâ so they deserve to sufferâ argument?
@OhiBro Iâm betting youâve spent some time on Reddit - check out the ânice guysâ subreddits and see if you recognize your perspective there.
Are you actually saying because women give birth they are somehow responsible for the ills visited on society by men? Do you see the incongruity of introducing the fact that women bear children as a blameworthy aspect in a discussion of sexual assault by men against women?
7 Likes
I donât care what kids are saying on Reddit.
I donât believe women âdeserve to sufferâ, and nothing I have said supports that. If I were king, the 50 rapists in that case would be put to death.
Iâm speaking from a broader perspective than just a single case. What would it take to reduce or eliminate rape? If actions are taken at the judicial level, by definition, that is too late. The damage from a rape has been done. Prevention is key, and I have no faith that judicial deterrence can ever be effective that way.
The root of what I have said is that women determine which genes are perpetuated. That is irrefutable. The nuance is that women are either unknowingly or uncaringly passing along the genes of aggression and violence that ultimately lead to rape.
Consider the alternate solutionââsome men rape, so men must solve thisâ. What would/could/should I do as a male to eliminate rape?
2 Likes
Raise sons who respect women.
9 Likes
So we should castrate all men who show violent tendencies to avoid passing along aggressive genes?
7 Likes
Stop blaming the victim and excusing the aggressor. Real men stand up and openly speak out against those who perpetuate these violent behaviors. No excuses. Period.
14 Likes
So the fact that women are raped is contributed to by the actions of women in choosing life partners?
I suppose this take should not be surprising given that just 30 years ago rape victims were routinely asked in court about their clothing at the time of the assault and their past sexual history.
Evidently the âblame the victimâ mindset is now expressed through attempts at ânuanced,â societal analysis. But the refrain is still familiar - women (as a group or individually) are at fault (in whole or part) for the pain visited upon them.
12 Likes
The problem with this line of reasoning is that --as the rape trial in France and a billion other instances showâârapistsâ are just men with the right set of circumstances. They are not separate beings, types of men, or anything special. The only commonality they have is that they are men.
I took a womenâs studies class once, and we were asked to ask men in our families if they had ever had a sexual experience with a women where they took advantage of her. These men were people we loved and spent intimate moments with. But the types of things that were disclosed were truly terrible. (My boyfriend at the time admitted to holding down a teen girl with another male friend, pulling up her shirt and fondling her breasts.) None of us saw these people as ârapists.â They were loved ones. And they were men who sexually harmed women. There is nothing ânutsâ about itâit is far too common and keeping that belief that it is crazy or unusual or only monsters harm women is one of the way it perpetuates.
Thatâs why we take the bear.
15 Likes
The trial has been widely followed worldwide - there were hundreds of journalists on the day of the sentencing. âGisèleâ no longer refers to a classical ballet but to the grandmother in that rape trial.
Women from all over France but also from Europe and the rest of the world came to stand a sort of honor guard for her - including Americans.
(Also because during the first couple weeks some of the accused would high five each other and yell threats to the women present, so more women came to show they were not intimidated by their behavior.)
It may not be common knowledge everywhere and it may not be a turning point but itâs a cultural watershed in terms of general understanding what a rape trial and a rapist are due to Gisèle Pelicot choosing to have an âopenâ trial, when the norm was to have a âclosedâ trial due to the victim feeling too much shame.
In terms of what a rape trial is (in France at least, but apparently elsewhere): the victim being taunted, mocked, threatened by some defense lawyers, including on social media - it shocked most people paying a modicum of attention because they couldnât believe this was done to rape victims and if lawyers could do this knowing itâd be reported on, it was clear they had used such antics and worse before, in âclosedâ trials with no witness to report on it beside the victim (whom they rightly knew wouldnât be taken seriously). It made it clear that only video evidence is found valuable, and even with it the victim was treated as if she were the defendant, again and again, as if it were her fault.
The ordeal it represents for victims was made also clear.
The impact of that was bad enough that the current French justice minister (himself accused of pressuring vulnerable women for unwanted sex - the trial for rape was dropped because the vulnerable woman was seen as too fragile and the rest of the inquiries into sexual assault etc closed when he joined the cabinet) had to go on TV and claim to do something major ⌠which turned out to be that accused offenders can now be held for 3 days before being automatically released - for more, watch Sambre , AFAIK Max or Prime, or BBC iPlayer - about how a serial rapist managed to elude the police for 30 years.
In terms of what rape is and thus who a rapist is, the trial exposed the fact the image that rapists are abnormal monsters lurking in the shadows protects rapists - and that image made the men feel it wasnât rape since they were regular people. In every other article it was pointed out how the men were employed in all positions of society, as if this were a major discovery. One of the men, when confronted with video evidence of the rapes heâd committed, said âIâm not a rapistâ - the act made him a rapist but he, like some of the 50, couldnât reckon with it because they thought of a savage monster jumping out of the bushes.
The trial also made it evident many, many men saw the wife as a husbandâs property. Again and again the court had to remind the rapists thereâs no such thing as delegated consent (or the idea a husband is the one wronged by a rape due to his property being used without his consent, so his giving consent for his wife meant it was okay), nor âhe agreed so I couldnât know it was wrongâ as a good reason to perform the acts they did.
âshe was drugged but maybe she wanted to be (not my problem)â was also used as a defense - despite their being recruited on a sub forum titled âwithout her consentâ (which is why they were convicted - âI couldnât knowâ not very convincing in that case but still, still, used).
The rapists mostly got less than the prosecutor had asked for. Some left the courtroom free for time served.
15 of them are appealing their sentences and are going to go, not with judges, but with a jury of their peers where they hope enough men will be swayed by their defense.
Others have till Dec 30 to follow suit.
20+ men couldnât be identified and remain at large.
The townâs mayor said he was relieved the trial was over because Gisèle had given his town a bad name (the Pelicot trial is called âMazan rape trialâ in France) and he was glad they could move on now.
13 Likes
I just . . . Have no idea how to respond to this. I think you truly believe you are trying to be fair and balanced but to load this onto the backs of women - who may be suffering from intimate partner violence, who may not have KNOWN their partner was violent, who may not be ABLE to escape their partner, and blame them for âperpetuatingâ the violent genes??
I also question your statement. I am not a scientist, but is it proven that rapists are rapists because of their aggression and genes? What about the environment they are raised in? If one man is convicted of rape, should we lock up his biological brothers because they share the same genes?
13 Likes
Done. But IMO, this is a 1:1 proposition that keeps the status quo without moving the ball on rape prevention. Non-raping father raises non-raping son. AlsoâŚ
Is it proven that nurture >> nature on this issue?
Women have effectively had this power since the beginning of time, and collectively have not used it to the point of preventing rape.
The âreal menâ position. I wonât go there. But I will say that I have never blamed the victim, and by advocating for death of the perps in the France case, I have stood up against those that perpetuate those behaviors.
I have also only ever been with one woman, and have never had a drink. I am not the problem, and have yet to hear any viable suggestions for what I can do to help prevent rape, other than advocating for what I have already stated.
Iâm glad you and many others have drawn energy from the case. I donât imagine anyone in my circle caring about an obscure case in France, though.
Thatâs not what Iâve done. It is a society-wide problem that requires effort from everyone, including women. This is not a male-only problem.
2 Likes
I think this article may help you understand what every single woman as well as a man or two has responded to your posts.
9 Likes
OhiBro - Iâd suggest reading the Reddit ânice guysâ subreddit before dismissing it as just âwhat kids say.â Itâs a collection of reports on the strong hostility some men exhibit toward women who have the temerity to not pick the nice, loyal, virtuous guys (them). They respond with blame and anger toward women as a whole.
The âwomen picking the wrong (bad) guys perpetuates rape across societyâ theory fits right in with those blame-driven (and often incel-flavored) concepts. Just thinking that you may wish to consider that a bitâŚ
8 Likes
So by implication are you saying men who have had more than one sexual partner or drink alcohol are âthe problemâ? If so seems a bit self righteous, offensive, ill informed and judgmental, but at least you have been consistentđ
9 Likes
You literally said that WOMEN are passing along the genes for aggression!
I agree it is a societal problem. I would not be spending so much time on issues like nature/nurture, but more like why do certain parts of our society elevate and encourage some types of male behavior? Why are boys and men made fun of if they cry? WHy are boys told to âman upâ?
Who knows if mindsets like that contribute to what goes on in rapists heads? After all, rape is about power, not sex.
9 Likes