Excellent article on victim-blaming, @oldmom4896.
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Thank you for not participating in the bullying.
I read the piece you linked. While it makes a good point, particularly about society needing to support women in abusive relationships, it calls a theory about innate masochism in some women as âbizarreâ. A recent survey shows 2 of 3 girls participating in consensual choking, so the theory really isnât bizarre but in the authorâs own opinion.
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IMHO you were not bullied.
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You werenât the target.
Sheâs saying you havenât been bullied in this thread by anyone.
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OhiBro - I cannot speak to all posts on this thread but most often you are being asked to re-examine your perspective that appears to hold women responsible (in part) - on a broad societal level - for sexual assault against by men against women.
You are now furthering your position by arguing that some women are masochistic. Even if this were true for a small percentage of women - what relevance does a consensual choking study of college students have to do with the rape of women by men (by definition non-consensual)?
To your apparent âdefense of genderâ concerns - millions of boys and men around the world are sexually assaulted each year (and these cases are highly under-reported).
Do you care to argue how these boys brought it on themselves?
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It was a single post that was quite obvious.
My perspective is based on 30+ years of adulting and observing, as it is with most others here. I provide it, and appreciate the views of others.
Across multiple posts, you have mentioned a Reddit thread that aligns with my views. I had no knowledge of that thread, so any similarity with my views is purely coincidental, but at your insistence, I read for a few minutes.
That Reddit thread is awful, and in no way represents my views, so I would respectfully request that you dissociate that thread from what I am posting here. It is a bunch of dumb kids posting there. My views have nothing to do with anger, resentment, trauma from prior rejections, etc, and certainly donât get into anything resembling women deserving rape.
Red flags, red flags, red flags. They are everywhere. This would be a big one. Men that respect women donât choke them, no matter the circumstances. I donât view it as a quantum leap to classify this group of guys as potential rapists, having poor genes, with questionable potential parenting skills. Why would women play with this kind of fire? Itâs not âblaming the victimâ, it is just the exact advice I would give to my own daughter. Run!
Same thing with alcohol, responsible for half of college rapes. Donât ever drink, or even attend drunk fests. That is not blaming victims, but rather promoting prevention. And it also, in my view, doesnât infringe on personal freedoms. That is, women shouldnât have to avoid doing something they want to do (drinking) for the purpose of being safe. I agree 100%. However, I advocate against the evils of alcohol for many reasons, so my advice not to drink is from a holistic view, with a convenient side benefit of reducing rape risk by 50%. Men weaponize alcohol, and by nature of me avoiding it, I have no way to stop itâit is on the backs of women to do so.
For the perps in the France case, someone said they were described as upstanding men. I donât believe that for one second. I can almost guarantee that if everyone that knew these perps were to speak honestly about them, all of them would have some level of sketchiness spoken about them. The problem is that it would most likely be other men that see the sketchiness, which is a weak point in my own argumentâhow can women act on what other men see? Perhaps this is how the stereotype of the overprotective father has evolved, because men see right through other men.
I donât care to weigh in on your point about boys being assaulted.
Rapists are 100% responsible for college rapes; alcohol is not making rapists rape. Non-rapists donât ârape when drunkâ.
Always interesting to me how active non-sentient items are in these kinds of discussion (alcohol âcausingâ rape) and how passively the actions of the rapists are described.
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Great point. I have advocated for the death penalty for rapists, and it probably would have been more clear (and more accurate) for me to have worded my post as âMen Rapists weaponize alcoholâŠâ
This story has been in the news all week in New Jersey. The still unidentified woman, whose body was found in a refrigerator, had been apparently in the woods of a state park to practice yoga. Sheâd have been better off encountering a bear than whoever killed her.
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Thatâs such a sad story, garland. The poor woman just wanted to practice yoga outside in peace.
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This is interesting. I read this right after saying to my H that theyâll identify her, then go find an ex boyfriend. I assume sheâs not local because she hasnât been identified.
So the man hiking in the woods who found her is a registered sex offender. Charged with obstruction for refusing to hand over his phone.
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Appeals Are Filed in Mass Rape Case in France, Bringing New Trial for 17 Men
Dominique Pelicot, the man convicted of raping his wife and of inviting dozens of others to join him in the abuse, did not appeal. But 17 of the other 50 found guilty did.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/30/world/europe/dominique-pelicot-appeal-france-rape-trial.html
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Far from the death penalty, the maximum sentences for those convicted of rape were 15 to 20 years in prison and they got 7-12 except for D.Pelicot, who got 20. It seems ridiculous. So the fact the 17 men are appealing is shocking, even though of course itâs their legal right.
Thereâs no question about nature v.nurture in this case unless you think that small town is somehow unique: In 6 square miles there were 50+ men willing to rape: the neighbor helping with the garden, the soccer coach, the firefighter⊠Random guys, some good, some sketchy, mostly average, none of them monsters in their own eyes or their family.
The 20+ who couldnât be identified likely lived further away.
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This is an exaggeration. The BBC phrases it as follows at Who are the men convicted in the GisĂšle Pelicot rape trial . The linked page also includes ages, occupations, a brief description of the men involved, and sentences received.
âMost of the 50 come from towns and villages in a 50km (30 mile) radius of the Pelicotsâ own village of Mazan.â
I listened to a podcast about the events a few days ago. I found it interesting that some of the older men seemed to genuinely not understand what they did was wrong at time of arrest (they did later after publicity). They seemed to believe that if they had the husbandâs permission, it could not be rape.
French culture from decades ago may contribute to such beliefs. Current French laws do not even include âconsentâ as part of the legal definition of rape and instead defines rape as a sexual act involving âviolence, coercion, threat or surprise.â This is relevant for the Pelicot case because some of the defendants argued that none of these 4 criteria occurred, so it did not violate the law. I am glad to see that such arguments were not successful.
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I saw this article from over a week ago and was surprised I hadnât heard of it until now.
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So disgusting and disturbing.
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My jaw dropped at this:
âThe investigation, by German broadcaster ARD and its STRG_F investigative team, also found group users had been swapping tips on how to sedate their partners.
This included posting links to online shops where sexual abusers could buy sedatives disguised as hair products.â
Hair products!!
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This is why the question of man or bear even exists.
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Thanks for listening to that podcast. Iâm sure it wasnât easy. Iâve made myself follow (there were daily, detailed reports in French) but I sometimes couldnât.
Some of it is cultural and uniquely French, such as the law. Some of it is recognizable regardless of culture (the way the victim was treated by the defense lawyers, the men claiming they were innocent â despite video evidenceâŠ) which is why thereâs been such attention paid to it.
Yes, consent is not part of the French definition of rape or sexual assault.
It was even a big fight to change the law so that children would be assumed as non consenting and it took the case of an 11 year old whose rapist was not convicted to change the law - because sheâd willingly followed when he said he would show her a game and sheâd win candy, then froze so no violence/coercion/threat/surprise⊠plus books leading to scandals involving big names.
France is currently grappling with âchemical submissionâ - if a person is intentionally rendered unable to consent, is that the âsurpriseâ element from the law? Isnât introducing a concept of âconsentâ asking a victim to justify themselves (which is against the law?)?
I highly recommend Sambre, a remarkable 6 episode series (itâs gripping - you may like Episode 4 with the data scientist who uses data to nearly solve the case ⊠except thatâs dismissed because it doesnât match the general opinion that rapist=abnormal guy, friendless drifter, freak.)
Itâs interesting because it shows the police&justice system in France but it also contains a lot of universal Ă©lĂ©ments. Change the surroundings, the uniforms, the house stylesâŠyou could see this happening in Maine or Yorkshire or Oregon.
Most of the dialogue comes from actual recordings. Even the 80s âstorage systemâ is true to life. I thought that moment, when the 2018 police say âyeah, you had exams at school today, right?â was exaggerated until something similar was brought to light for 2023.
(The books were culturally important but very niche, I only list them for reference.
You donât have to wonder why Roman Polanski went to France though - writers and intellectuals seem to get a pass on everything.
https://www.amazon.com/Familia-Grande-Memoir-Camille-Kouchner/dp/1635422124?dplnkId=ad8cc3e3-b978-4fe9-93fa-18d619efd3d4
Consent by Vanessa Springora review â a memoir of lost adolescence | Autobiography and memoir | The Guardian)
Sorry about the 6 square miles which donât apply to the 50+ - a lot came from that area but indeed the actual area for all of them was way bigger at 30 sq mi. The small size of the area vs my expectation that they came from all over France caused me to encompass all into that small area.
My exageration was not intentional.
The townâs mayor is on record for lots of very sketchy statements though.
But that doesnât negate the idea these men donât have weird genes, are not freaks&monsters, donât feel like freaks&monsters (in fact some resent being made to feel like monsters very much). Theyâre normal men who, for whatever reason, felt ok with what they chose to do.
Hence, the bear, I guess.
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