Work load for athletes at elite universities

Athletic Recruits
1

I’ve tried twice to ask this on the regular board, and both time the thread was hijacked by people debating the validity of the question and any answers that are given. If you feel that this is a dumb poster asking a dumb question, great. I’m dumb. Feel free to PM me to tell me that. But please just skip over the thread and don’t take it over with a debate about the validity of the question.

S is trying to get a handle on the comparative workload at elite universities. He gets that they are all difficult, and that attending one while competing in athletics makes it doubly difficult. Having said that, he’s trying to find out the difference between the workload at various schools.

He is a math guy, probably will major in math or econ, possibly a hard science. He would much rather take any math or science class over a class with a writing requirement, so in that sense Brown or another school with a more open curriculum may be a bit easier just for his strength set.

Obviously this is just one of many factors. But generally speaking, which of the elite schools are going to be a more manageable work load for an athlete? He’s a pretty social kid, and a bit freaked out by the possibility of nothing but studying and practicing for 4 years. He’s looking at the Ivy’s and other comparable schools, probably D1, although I am also curious how the top NESCAC schools would fit in.

I don’t really care about grade inflation, UNLESS that means that everyone just works a bit less hard. If Brown students don’t put in as much time as Princeton students because they know that A will come easier or at worst the gentleman’s B, that I care about. Basically how much time comparatively is required to look like an acceptable student when it comes time to apply for a job.

Thanks.

2

@dadof4kids, don’t know much about D1, but do have a rising Freshman XC/Track student athlete at a NESCAC school and I think it’s easy to manage as;

  • all classes end at 4:00 to accommodate varsity athlete practices and other EC’s - 30-40% of students are varsity athletes
  • and weight training is in the mornings before classes so pretty straightforward.

From a career recruiting perspective, I think a student athlete is viewed as a plus plus as it shows leadership and commitment, but I don’t think sacrificing academics for a D1 program would be viewed favorably - if a sacrifice needed to be made…

3

totally agree with @Chembiodad
my boys are also at a NESCAC School and workload is tough but very manageable. He found at job interviews being a student athlete was a big +++
Had interviews with a company where every student who was flown in were only athletes from elite schools
good luck

4

One of mine is an athlete at an Ivy and it’s a lot of work both athletically and academically. I think it’s a little tough for any of us to conclusively say if one school is more work than another as most people have one or maybe a couple kids at most. Depends on the kid, their work ethic, their goals and their major.

5

If your son wasn’t playing or working out, would he be studying? Does he want to study more? I really don’t think most athletes would be spending the extra time studying, I think they’d be spending the extra time doing other things. Or nothing Or sleeping. The competitiveness of the school is what it is, for athletes and non-athletes. Time available is what is different.

My daughter often gets up very early on Sundays to study because she’s used to getting up early for lifting and conditioning, and because she might want to do something else later. You’ll also find her studying on game trips. She’s not so good at reading in moving vehicles, but she has to do it. Honestly, the rest of the team isn’t doing that. Some are just smarter than her and need less time to study. Others have easier majors and don’t need as much time to study. Some don’t care as much. My daughter puts in the time she needs. She’s also very organized. She has had some trouble with group projects with non-athletes who aren’t as organized. They want to leave everything until the last minute, and she doesn’t have that option. She can’t wait until the day before.

If not for sports, she’d do more social things but she wouldn’t be any happier about it. She actually likes playing one group of friends off another. “Oh, I can’t do X at the sorority because I have practice.” “Oh, I can’t go out with the team on Friday night because I have a sorority commitment.” It works for her.

6

@dadof4kids I answered your other post and tried to keep it relative to your question. Is your son going to be a stem athlete at an elite school? My S is one at an Ivy. He managed fine his first year and did spend his “extra” time sleeping or socializing if he wasn’t studying. Classes don’t go past 4:30 so that helps. Classes are rigorous just as much they are competitive. I think that’s been probably the biggest challenge for him…competing against other students on and off the field! It can get exhausting and stressful that’s for sure, but it’s doable and he really enjoys his school and teammates. Time management is key to good grades, but being a student-athlete forces them to manage their time well.

Lastly, when I asked my S to compare his college schedule to his HS schedule, he said that his collegiate team works smarter not harder and that comprises the difference in time. He spent way more time training and practicing with his HS team compared to college. Plus with classes spread out vs being in HS from 7:30-2:30 everyday, that allows extra time to study or sleep at college.

7

I think a lot of it depends on the sport as well as the school. Football at Stanford or basketball at Duke are likely to have demands over and above squash at Harvard. And football at Stanford and football at Bowdoin, well… Athletes put in lots of time outside class training and competing, but the nature of the sport also determines whether flexibility around practice times is possible (yes for swimming, no for crew) and how much travel is involved. For many, the structure of a day with practice is helpful to getting work done.

The travel is perhaps the biggest time suck, so being on a team that regularly makes overnight trips can be tough, especially if studying on a bus (or plane) is hard for you.

This is a YMMV issue but is worth asking prospective teammates about on the OVs.

8

I don’t think this is a dumb question, I think it is a difficult question. All answers are going to be subjective, with anecdotes about relatives, personal experiences or the experiences of people known. For example, I had a friend who told me that the hardest part about Brown is getting in. But, that was many moons ago, and what does it even mean?

I am unaware of any type of systematic study into the difficulty of one school over the other, although at the margins a school with significantly lower admissions criteria might (I repeat might) be academically easier than an Ivy (check out “David and Goliath” for an interesting take). It is pretty subjective, and therefore for some kids Harvard will be easier than Delaware State is for others.

Here’s an example, I know a kid who went to an Ivy – not a recruit, super smart and high achiever. She had a very difficult time with base level chemistry because everyone else had taken AP chem in high school and she had only taken honors chem.

I think what happens when high school students go to college is a reorientation of objectives and how they fit into the time allotted. So, someone who is driven to be pre-med and who is challenged time-wise might drop clubs. Another person who wanted pre-med might find a place in statistics because the rewards of greek life are so great. I don’t think this is a bad thing. It is natural.

I would focus on fit and opportunity. Fit should include asking teammates about the difficulty of academics. The rest should fall into place for each individual person.

9

At Dartmouth varsity athletes are sometimes given special consideration in course placement. For example, there is a required English/Writing series which most students start in the fall. However, students whose sport competes in the fall are allowed to start in the winter term instead.

In addition, regarding course selection, many schools have flexible requirements. At Dartmouth, distributive requirements are chosen from a pretty broad list. In addition, high AP scores can allow a student to waive certain requirements.

10

Agreeing with most of the above posters: one of the reasons that it is so hard to get a straight answer is that it varies so much by kid, major and sport. I have seen multiple kids from the same high school class go to the same elite college and some end up working all the hours of the day and night, and others have a pretty average work load.

That said, a few factoids / things to look for:

-> Harvard has a reputation for making the fewest adjustments for student athletes; anecdotally it is the only one that I have first hand knowledge of a recruited athlete not being able for the academics and transferring out. Note that is anecdotal, and most likely says more about that individual than the actual work. I know/have known multiple athletes at all of the top tier schools who have made it through just fine.
-> The athletes that I have known who have struggled (excepting the one mentioned above, who transferred out) typically came from schools that left them underprepared for an academically rigorous environment (esp study skills and writing), but after a tough first semester or two found their feet (using the many, many resources available, including writing centers, tutors, support groups, etc) and were fine.
-> JHU has a reputation for courses with a particularly high out-of-class work requirement; CMU has a reputation for being hard to keep up with (esp in the hyper competitve CS & BME programs)
-> As others have noted, colleges with a high ‘core’ emphasis (eg, Columbia, UChic) have more requirements/less flexibility
-> The most likely classes to conflict with practice/meet schedules are labs for intro sciences. This is an easy thing to check ahead of time, and if there are evening labs for courses your son might be taking see if athletes get preferential scheduling
-> Math and Physical Sciences (eg, Bio, Physics, Chem & their derivatives) often have different / more specific major trajectories than Econ, which can be the de facto business major. If a further degree is likely, consider how much summer time is left for research work, which is a big part of grad school acceptance.

But in terms of the original ‘how hard is the work for a typical student’ question, most of the elites are places that once you are in they work hard to help you stay in, and for an able, prepared student the variables for the work load are more about what they choose to do than the school itself.

And just for fun, I will say that amongst the students that I know, Dartmouth has a reputation for being the best of the elites if you are looking for an easy path through.* Having placed that UXB there, I will now quietly walk away…

*obv, there is plenty of academic rigor if you want it, but…

11

At. Cornell classes all end by 4:30 leaving time for practice. Would like to know if this is also true of other Ivies and elites. At brown the time devoted to sports can be huge with captain’s practices and meetings stretching beyond what you might think is allowed. NESCAC and other D3 elites won’t do this. Like OP I would like to hear about specific schools especially D1

12

Not just D1 – D3 has captain’s practices, meetings etc. in and out of season. My kid at D3 program spends 25-30 hours in season, including travel, meetings etc. Off season, its probably 10-15 hours, with mandatory conditioning, strength training, and “optional” training (not optional for the athlete who wants to compete for more playing time etc).

The general rule of thumb is that D1 is 40+ hours in season and perhaps 20+ hours out of season, with conditioning etc.

13

Here’s an important link regarding academics and sports…at least for D1

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/20284353/josh-rosen-ucla-bruins-says-football-school-go-together-ponders-alabama-success-sat-requirement-raised

14

Thanks for the comments so far, good information. I’m still wondering about comparative workload, i.e. do you have to study much harder at Princeton than Harvard to keep up. Anyone have kids at 2 different places with similar majors (not necessarily H & P)? I know that it will vary from student to student, just looking for any comparisons.

Dartmouth and Yale are the 2 Ivy’s that are off the table for S (no varsity wrestling program).

15

Not perfect science, but look at the rosters and at the majors the athletes have chosen. If you see a lot of electrical engineers, I think you can assume the players are able to balance rigorous academics with athletics. If you see a lot of what would be considered the ‘easy’ majors (and I don’t know what those are at Ivies, but at big public would be Sports Team Management or Communication) you can probably count on the athletics taking a lot of time.

There are always going to be outliers. The top player on the Brown lacrosse team was winning all kinds of academic honors, but I’m sure there were other players taking a much easier road to a degree. There are football players being named Rhodes scholars even when the rest of the team is not as focused on academics.

16

No. Princeton, as an example, also blocks off time for practice (4:20-7:30), but these are the minority for Ivy League schools.

17

Princeton and Cornell don’t have late classes, then. How about other elites if anyone knows?

18

All of the NESCAC’s follow the 4:00 rule, so plenty of elites in that mix.

19

Keep in mind, some of it is sport contingent. A basketball player at Duke will be putting in a lot more hours (practice, training, traveling, watching film, press), than a golf player at Brown. And while athletes need to keep afternoons free for practice which is usually doable, sometimes scheduling labs can get tricky.

20

At daughter’s school, most math exams are given at 7 pm on Thursday nights. When that happens, there are no athletic or social club meetings at that time. Athletes get to register first so get the lab times they need to work with their practices. The bus for a travel game is scheduled after exams when possible, usually on a Friday morning at 9 or 10 to allow students to take a quiz or attend the early section of a course.

If there is a conflict, academics win.