@Pizzagirl with all due respect, I think it is you who keeps mixing this up. I am not against your choice of things I am against discriminating service to people.
You can discriminate against most people or corps etc on a rational basis… (for a rational reason) i.e. what books you stock … that hasn’t been a problem in our society and isn’t part of constitution i.e. the 14th amendment.
but if you are a book store open to the public you can’t refuse to sell your books to someone because they are Black or gay.
The reason why its ok for you to discriminate on your choice of books and not on your choice of customers
(if those customers happen to be in a suspected class) is bc of the criteria for a suspected class:
The group has historically been discriminated against, and/or have been subject to prejudice, hostility, and/or stigma, perhaps due, at least in part, to stereotypes.[1]
They possess an immutable[2] and/or highly visible trait.
They are powerless[2] to protect themselves via the political process. (The group is a “discrete” and “insular” minority.[3])
The group’s distinguishing characteristic does not inhibit it from contributing meaningfully to society.[4]
The gov can’t have an inferior group of people bc of
“Some of those buses are subsidized with public money.”
Can you please provide which private bus companies those would be? TYIA.
And I want to add in some states (Mississippi) it is perfectly legal to refuse service to people bc they are gay, it is only not legal in states that have included sexual orientation an gender identity in their non discriminations protections…
there is no federal protection (yet) on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity to a certain extent. OCR has ruled that Title IX and Title VII have and include sexual orientation and gender identity under sex discrimination.
sorry for all the typos Im on phone
What if you run a religious daycare center? Can you not take on a child of gay parents? Can such a child conceivably live in an area where there are only x number of daycare centers and all are religious in some way? How does that affect the parents’ ability to work?
“but if you are a book store open to the public you can’t refuse to sell your books to someone because they are Black or gay.”
Agreed! But I don’t have to stock black-themed “things” or gay-themed “things.”
In the wedding cake scenario, the bakers are not refusing to sell things to gay people - if a gay person walks up and wants that cookie, wrap it up and here you go. They are refusing to provide/make what they consider a gay-themed “thing” (a cake that says Happy Wedding Day Mary and Sue).
I want to throw this out there to you all (and my son is going to try an duo a research project w GLSEN on this) is if there is any increase in bullying cases etc of lgbt youth in states w these laws NC and MS etc … bc they are seen as inferior …
I suspect there will be as there already is from the Donald Trump effect
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-effect-southern-poverty-law-center_us_570e8619e4b03d8b7b9f2836
Really Emily? It looked like you were being a little more inclusive in the statement, which is why I asked.
@Pizzagirl But they are refusing to sell ANY wedding cake to couples solely bc they are gay and it is a same-sex marriage… They don’t want their cake at a gay wedding …
they don’t want their book in the hands of a gay customer…
[quote[But they are refusing to sell ANY wedding cake to couples solely bc they are gay and it is a same-sex marriage… They don’t want their cake at a gay wedding …
they don’t want their book in the hands of a gay customer…
[/quote]
A gay wedding and a gay customer are not the same.
And I don’t recall a case of a wedding service provider refusing to sell, say, a cookie to a gay person.
Well that raises an even finer point. If a baker makes wedding cakes, can they say no to a wedding cake for a gay wedding even if they don’t have to decorate it with two women or “Congrats Joe and Jim” or otherwise do anything “gay” to it?
What if a gay married couple comes in to buy a cake for a straight wedding for, say, one of their kids?
This has already been legally hashed out,
a store can’t pick and choose what its customers do with the products they sell (as @Hunt suggests they can however put in disclaimers as to the dangers of using that product for purposes other than what they think its intended for)
A gay wedding can’t buy a product. a gay person buys the product. If you sell wedding cakes you have to sell them to everyone … the customer wants a wedding cake not a cookie
So why not just write a flyer with a disclaimer about using the product in x ways??
The issue becomes that it’s something they CREATE, runswimyoga.
It’s not about refusing to ring up the gay couple who wants a dozen of those cookies in the front row.
It’s about not participating in something they don’t want their business to promote - just like my hypothetical bookstore doesn’t sell the Bhagavad Gita and doesn’t support flyers for “intro to Hinduism 101.” Do you think I should be forced to promote or support Hinduism 101 at my business? THAT’S DIFFERENT from waiting on Hindu customers.
@zoosermom are you saying you think its ok for a store to refuse to sell a wedding cake for the same sex marriage wedding ceremony but not a cookie to be used for the same purpose in the ceremony? So by law Man/women weddings can have cake and same sex weddings should have cookies??
But that’s not what you were saying in your previous post. You said “they don’t want their book in the hands of a gay customer.” And there a distinction between that and “They don’t want their cake at a gay wedding.”
“Really Emily? It looked like you were being a little more inclusive in the statement, which is why I asked.”
Sorry you had a different impression then I intended. I assumed the totality of my posts on this thread would make it clear what I meant. My bad. I will try to be more careful from now on.
@Pizzagirl selling isn’t promoting. A manufacturer doesn’t get to decide what their product can be used for.
If you want to pick and choose who you sell what you create then, You can’t refuse to sell your creations to people in protected classes you have to offer your creations to everyone (in that protected class) or NOT OFFER THAT CREATION AT ALL. You have a choice in what to sell or what to create that will be sold.
So don’t make wedding cakes if you don’t want to sell them to everyone
Can you force an artist to paint a picture of a gay couple?
How about a couple where the bride is 13 years old and the groom is 40 years old?
Do I have any choices if I am a business owner?
How about a masseuse or masseur? Can they be forced to provide services to a gay person if their religion is against homosexuality?
I do not think that it is “separate but equal” to have someone else marry a couple, like the assistant justice of the peace, when if the justice of the peace was out sick, the assistant would be marrying people.
I agree to some extent about “clubs” being formed to combat this. That is, I am aware of clubs that are associated with churches in my area, and when it comes down to it, you join the club if they want you to, and don’t if they don’t want you to. If someone has a party and brings in “the wrong types” (whatever they might be), they can rescind their membership which includes the right to have a party at the club.
Why is it so unbelievable that a bakery could be like a club, and that you can come in and look, but if you purchase, you have to join the club? Is that discrimination, to say the bakery is a private club?
Does Costco, which ostensibly is a club, have the right to refuse someone membership?
No. I didn’t say anything was ok. I said it was different. That’s all. Personally, I’m not comfortable with either, but gay marriage has been part of my life since high school - even before it was legal here! I’m just saying that in your own post, the two things weren’t quite the same.
No, it’s not you. I misunderstood, which was why I clarified. I knew I was confused!
What part of “customized” is unclear here?
They will sell the cookies / cakes at the counter to anyone who walks in.
I (bookstore owner) will sell any magazine / book on my shelves to anyone who walks in.
They will not “customize”/create a cake for a gay wedding - even if the only customization is writing “Happy Wedding Day Mary and Sue.”
I will not “customize” my bookstore for a religion I don’t believe in - even if the only customization is leaving up the poster that says “Learn about Hinduism” or telling my supplier I’d like 5 copies of the Bhagavad Gita.