[Quote]
LasMa: Baking a cake is not a religious practice. The baker’s beliefs do not make it one[?quote]
No one claimed baking a cake in itself was a religious practice. However, creating cakes as a work of art FOR RELIGIOUS ceremonies should not be required against the conscience of the artist/baker.
What if the couple is having a civil ceremony? Or, what if the baker has a sincerely held religious belief that interracial marriage is an abomination? Some still do, you know. Should they be entitled to refuse to serve an interracial couple?
This isn’t about cakes or weddings. It’s about discrimination.
Gosh @TranquilMind you make it sound like religious marriage-is-a-man-and-woman people are being forced to marry others of the same-sex, or approve of it.
What if they’re getting married outside the church? You know, actually, legally, getting married and skipping the church ceremony. Is it OK to bake a cake for that reception?
Agree that Christians beliefs should be respected. That’s why they are not forced to get gay-married themselves. That’s why they are allowed to go to any church they want, and worship exactly as they please. What they are not allowed to do is force their beliefs on their customers.
@TranquilMind What facts in the Think Progress piece do you dispute?
No, these people’s beliefs should not be respected. Tolerated, allowed, perhaps. But beliefs based on such ignorance, hatred, and bigotry do not deserve respect.
The thing is, they don’t just want their beliefs respected, they want it made the law of the land. And it goes beyond marriage. This is essentially the same response as has happened to many issues that have come along – the Civil War, women’s voting, civil rights, women’s rights, and so on.
BTW, ThinkProgress is a great site – lots of important, useful, and accurate information.
If a church teaches that you will go to hell for baking a cake for a couple, I think I would find another church.
@runswimyoga My heart breaks for your son hearing those hateful words. It boggles my mind how someone can call themselves a Christian family and yet spout such hate. Awful. I’m happy that he has found some support from fellow students.
@runswimyoga, If your son’s potential roommate reneged because of his parents’ insistence, which was the impression I had, he will have that weight to carry. I know you’re angry, upset, and protective, and you should be, but that boy will probably suffer guilt and shame for what he did. Maybe not tomorrow, but on campus, away from his parents, he might reflect on how he has been diminished by his parents’ ignorant bullying.
Hugs to your son.
》》The thing is, they don’t just want their beliefs respected, they want it made the law of the land. And it goes beyond marriage. This is essentially the same response as has happened to many issues that have come along – the Civil War, women’s voting, civil rights, women’s rights, and so on.《《
It’s the same for both sides. People whose faith teaches them that homosexuality is a sin and unnatural feel that they are being forced to accept and applaud behavior that is just plain wrong (in their eyes.) That is not to say that some religious people don’t overreact to it. Some do. Christians are people too, and they have weaknesses. People who support homosexuality feel they are being forced to accept that they could be wrong, which naturally they don’t want to do. They want to be accepted and their actions to become law of the land too (aka gay marriage.) Whichever way the pendulum swings, no one will accept everyone else’s beliefs because there are two different philosophies about the matter.
It is not a matter of forcing beliefs on someone else.
It is matter of whether the law should restrict something that causes no harm to others. If your religion says that something is a sin (e.g. fearing bad news, boasting, wearing expensive clothes, gold, pearls, or fancy hairstyles, wearing clothes with different kinds of threads or fabrics, breeding hybrid cattle, or doing any work on the sabbath), but other people’s practice of that does not harm you, does it make sense for the law to restrict that?
^ That depends on who you ask. A secular person will say no, everybody can do their own thing. A religious person might feel that the government should enforce laws to keep people (for the most parts) living within the tenets of the religion for the common good (aka, if more people are committed to that religion, more people saved, etc.) Now, obviously the problem comes in where you have a gazillion people of different religions and/or interpretations of the same religion as well non-religious people at odds with each other over what is “right” or “makes sense.” The thing is that not everyone is going to agree. It’ll come down to majority rule, it just may not be a smooth process.
Making laws based on the rules of the religion does nothing to get people to commit to the religion, unless the laws actually require (presumably otherwise unwilling) people to commit to that religion.
^ Well yes, obviously it doesn’t really work most of the time. I think the idea is more to keep as many things that detract from the religion out of the public view, and definitely out of public approval, in order to make people more willing to be a part of the religion.
The only flaw in your argument is that in the US our system of laws is not based on the bible. There are countries in the world which do have laws based on religion, and we’ve seen how that usually turns out.
Christians are indeed people too, but the basic law of the land (the Constitution) prohibits them from forcing their biblical beliefs on others. People in this country are entitled to equal treatment and protection under the law, period. Religious beliefs have no say in that.
Some Christians are all bummed out about that. But they don’t see that the system also protects them from having laws based on Islam, Hinduism, etc forced down their throats as well.
NO. This is NOT what is happening. No one is being forced to accept (let alone applaud) jackdiddly. What anti-discrimination laws say is that you cannot discriminate against someone based on X, Y, or Z.
Good grief I am so freaking sick of the argument that making it illegal to discriminate against someone is somehow forcing someone to accept something. It’s tired, it’s wrong, and it’s backed by hatred and bigotry, pure and simple.
I have a very simple rule for these types of laws. If you replace “gay” (or whatever word you want to use) with “Black,” would it be discriminatory? I refuse to bake a cake for a Black couple. Black people must use a restroom based on their race. (Hint: the answer is yes.)
I sincerely hope the back—ward part of our country can join us in the 21st century one of these days. I’m so freaking sick of having my tax dollars fighting this BS when there are real, actual problems facing our country. Like 1 in 5 children going hungry. Like students having uninhabitable schools. Like vets having substandard safety nets.
**Get over it and focus on something that Jesus actually preached if you’re going to fight for a “Christian” nation./b
^^ Wish I could like that one 10 times, romani. And as a practicing Christian, 100% agree with your last statement. If even half of this “religious freedom” outrage were directed at the disgraceful poverty in this country, this would be a much better place for everybody. (Psst, Christians – Jesus actually DID have quite a lot to say about our responsibility to the poor, and exactly zero about the gay. As you very well know.)
Albert, this is not about religious beliefs. It is only masked that way. It is about small, mean people trying to hold on to a tiny bit of power. Do you want to go into a courthouse and have to ask 3 or 4 different clerks for a marriage license before you can get one, even though the US Supreme Court has said it is your right? Its demeaning and humiliating.
If you want an activist Christian role model look to Jimmy Carter. He goes all over the world seeking fair elections, builds houses for people, and still teaches Sunday school at his church. That is the activism we need. Making the world a better place. Not a meaner place.
LasMa…No, no, no. The racial thing is not equivalent at all. There is no biblical proscription against marrying someone with darker or lighter skin color. People always trot that out as if it is equivalent. It isn’t.
[Just propounding the argument here].