There could be commercial implications, yes. Would you prevent women from leaving a club that had a trans member who was using the women’s locker room? Would you mandate that young women in high schools shower with an anatomic male or shouldn’t they be permitted a right to privacy? Both rights need to be protected.
I also want to pose to you all, that my (gay) son has been beaten up (with a fist), pantsed and swirled in locker rooms from straight males uncomfortable with the fact that my son might look at their junk (in their minds) in a sexual way privacy in bathrooms doesn’t extend to not being looked at potentally in a sexual way… because if so whats next banning gay people from bathrooms…???
@zoosermom If we are truly worried about unintended consequences we should ban Male GOP lawmakers (Hastert) from bathrooms as some like boys.
I’m deeply troubled at passing laws against a group of innocent people. When shootings occur people are quick to say don’t punish the ‘law abiding gun owner’ so why are we ok about punishing transgender people for the criminal activity of others?
This is what the manager realized; that 30% of his business (more than his profit margin) was about to leave if there were nude penises in the female locker room. I would venture given the makeup of the facility that a good 30% of business comes from families with children and women taking yoga, zumba etc. as there are zero guys in those classes. Those people were clearly about to vote with their feet and dollars out the door.
I note that nobody seems to be interested in revealing whether they think a compromise in which privacy is maintained for everybody is reasonable or not.
I think compromises can be made. I think a bathroom with stalls is an entirely different case than a shower room or locker room which affords no privacy for nudity.
Where nudity is an issue, all persons rights should be accomodated.
I’m confused by your question, runswimyoga. Those seem like assaults to me, for which there already remedies. Do you think that gay people, who aren’t transgender, should use the locker rooms of the other gender?
But you make an excellent point, that where nudity and bodily functions are concerned, a lot of sensitivity and common sense are required, no matter what the circumstances. I have known girls who were bullied and body shamed by other girls in locker rooms (with sexual identity being completely a non-issue) because it is a fraught area. So the real solution could be communication and respect, rather than name-calling and outrage. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have to deal with cruelty or dangerous behavior, but in the world we live in, we do. I would suggest going forward that public buildings either have private stalls now or be required under code to build them in new buildings. Something like the dressing rooms at nicer department stores. I wouldn’t know who was in the next dressing room and wouldn’t care, and there would be no reason for anyone of good intentions to walk around naked. So the act of being unclothed outside of the private dressing room should be actionable.
I think it’s great that a cake baker doesn’t have to print “derogatory” statements on a cake, whatever “derogatory” means this week. I just don’t think a cake baker should have to print any statement on a cake that he doesn’t agree with, because I think requiring him to do so violates his own freedom of speech. I will say that this would be a much stronger case for somebody like a publisher, or ghostwriter, or speechwriter, since we expect these people, in significant ways, to “join in” the speech involved. At the other end of the spectrum, imagine a delivery company that refused to deliver a cake with a message it didn’t like. I would argue that in no way does that company “join in” the speech, and that its actions with regard to the speech are ministerial in nature. The cake decorator is in the middle, which is why everybody is talking about that example.
Of course you can. I am living proof that companies have turned down political campaigns for all sorts of products, which they were going to pay for. Did not want their money and did not want to be associated with them.
This is a one-way street that some are trying to create here - treat me based on what I believe, but I need not treat you based on what you believe. And if you do not treat like I want, I will cause you of “discrimination.” even though it has nothing to do with - it is differing beliefs and not wanting to be associated with those other beliefs.
I agree. And it would be a helpful first step if certain state governments would stop putting the official stamp of demonization on gays/trans.
No, I do not. I think that everybody should use the bathroom of their gender identity… I am concerned with the premise @Hunt is throwing us here about expectations of privacy in bathrooms… I don’t agree with his theory of just how far that should go.
Yes my son was covered under laws protecting him, and anti bullying laws… but if we start regulating privacy in bathrooms based on peoples comfort levels (as Hunt suggests) then it is a slippery slope
I told you about my sons experience to illustrate just how uncomfortable his mere presence made others…
“So our rights should be determined by other peoples’ comfort level with them
To some extent, yes. For example, housing discrimination laws generally don’t reach into who you must accept as your own roommate.”
Yes. This is exactly it. I am prohibited from turning away black people (or gay, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Baptist, or whatever) from my restaurant, or discriminating against them in my place of work. But I am not obligated to invite them over my house or offer to room with them.
So just to pin you down, @runswimyoga, are you saying, specifically, that a 10-year-old girl has no reasonable expectation to not see nude adult penises in a women’s locker room? I think we should be really clear if that’s what you are saying.
“also want to pose to you all, that my (gay) son has been beaten up (with a fist), pantsed and swirled in locker rooms from straight males uncomfortable with the fact that my son might look at their junk (in their minds) in a sexual way”
I’m terribly sorry your son has been beaten up. That’s already a crime, though, right? Whether they beat him up because he was gay or because he had blue eyes or because they wanted his wallet. I don’t see how this is relevant.
I understand. I am so sorry.
And it would be great if there weren’t a movement to force compliance with no compromise.
@runswimyoga from the bottom of my heart, I am so sorry that your son has had to go through these things.
It is exactly those types of boys who grow up to pass these types of laws. It makes me sick that pockets of young people are still so intolerant, scared, and hate-filled- especially to the point of violence.
So the trans woman in the locker room who’s making other women uncomfortable? Who should be accommodated? Before you answer, know that the trans woman is going to be not only uncomfortable, but possibly subject to shaming/bullying/physical danger in the men’s locker room.
The 4th circuit court today ( which covers North Carolina) sided with a transgender student today.
https://www.aclu.org/news/federal-court-appeals-rules-favor-transgender-student-virginia-restroom-access-case
Both. Private dressing rooms or common sense by everyone in both dressing rooms. Most have stalls. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes. Won’t kill you. And that goes for everyone.
It’s so odd to me that people actually think there is no shaming/bullying/danger in women’s locker rooms.