Heres what I think…I don’t think that seeing a penis is any more traumatizing than seeing a naked adult woman w full bush (so to speak) and breasts… I can remember being horrified at that when I was young… but I got over it -mostly because I really wasn’t put in any more situations like that… i.e. I changed at home or did activities where there were only kids in locker rooms… . I do think locker rooms should offer changing rooms that have privacy so if you want to use them you can… you can also avert your eyes… We need education here not paranoia
I think that everyone should be able to use the locker room of their gender identity.
I will also tell you at my sons school no adult is allowed to use locker rooms w children during school hours… after hours (i.e. at the pool) it is allowed but its more enter at your own risk so if that terrifies you then stay out of the locker room.
Name-calling. It’s not paranoia. It’s a different set of values and norms than yours. Yours are not better. There is no “education” involved in seeing another person naked unwillingly. That is abuse.
I’m fine with everyone using the locker room of his or her gender identity and using common sense and respect for others and keeping covered.
There was plenty of shaming and bullying in my girls’ junior high locker room (for me personally, everything about junior high PE was barbaric and emotionally scarring, starting with the locker room). But adults should have outgrown that and if they haven’t, then they are in the wrong. Certainly in my current gym locker room, there is nothing remotely like that. People mind their own business. Grown women are capable of keeping their eyes to themselves, and are certainly capable of understanding that a trans woman isn’t there to cop a peek. In fact, she’s undoubtedly the most nervous woman in the room.
There’s a thread here of teaching children to be ashamed of bodies… but that’s a whole rant that’s not especially relevant to this discussion (but something I still find sad and unfortunate).
This is exactly the point. Unwillingness to respect that others have different opinions that don’t constitute hate or paranoia without using those words or feeling the need to rant or mock (icky anyone?), along with unwillingness to accept any limitations on a position or any form of compromise. Using the women’s locker room for safety (if it really is safer) is fine. But when asked that EVERYONE have some respect and cover up invites the vapors.
Bathroom, locker room and other structures were modified to accomodate the handicapped. Similar changes could be made to accomodate individual privacy. Individual showers. Eliminate gang showers. Individual changing rooms. Then all people could have their privacy respected regardless of the reason whether it be transgender, body image or whatever.
Then I fail to see the problem with having trans women in the women’s locker room, zoos. And yes,alterations could be made, individual showers installed, etc. That’s going to cost money, though, and American businesses squealed like a stuck pig about ADA accommodations. Still are in some quarters.
So just to be crystal clear here, your answer to my question is “yes?” That she should just get over it if it occurs?
I think one problem we have here is that a very specific issue gets mixed up with a lot of other issues (as seen by this discussion overall). I think most people would be able to come up with a reasonable set of procedures and etiquette rules that would address use of bathrooms and locker rooms by transgender persons, that would protect everybody’s privacy. But that’s hard to do when there are bigger agendas from various sides that are injected into the issue.
I have no problem with it. I never did have a problem with it on its own. I am concerned that it’s a Trojan Horse for pervs, but that’s not the fault or responsibility of trans women.
Personally, I think this is an easy one. Private stalls and/or respect to others (no matter who you are), but when that has been offered in certain cases, private stalls have been rejected.
The problem I see is in high school gym locker rooms. That is the only situation in which a minor girl would be forced to share a nude space with an anatomical man. In a club or gym, a person could quit. It’s the high school that should find some sort of accomodation, until a remodel can be done protecting everyone’s privacy.
I think another place the issue can come up is the locker room at public pools and parks. Of course, anybody can choose not to go there, but they shouldn’t have to do that. But I think that’s true both of the transgender person and the person who expects a certain level of privacy in a locker room. I think they both have rights that need consideration, which is why the way this issue has gone makes me sad.
“The problem I see is in high school gym locker rooms. That is the only situation in which a minor girl would be forced to share a nude space with an anatomical man. In a club or gym, a person could quit. It’s the high school that should find some sort of accomodation, until a remodel can be done protecting everyone’s privacy.”
Well the 4th Circuit just ruled that segregating trans students violates their rights under Titke IX.
" A federal court of appeals today ruled in favor of transgender male student Gavin Grimm in his challenge to Gloucester High School’s discriminatory restroom policy that segregates transgender students from their peers by requiring them to use “alternative, private” facilities.
The ruling from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit marks the first time that a federal appeals court has determined that Title IX protects the rights of transgender students to use sex segregated facilities that are consistent with their gender identity. The Fourth Circuit remanded the case for the district court to reevaluate Gavin’s request for a preliminary injunction under the proper legal standard."
In the 1970s I went from a small, conservative, Midwestern LAC to a large, urban Australian uni where the dorm bathrooms were shared by both genders. The first time I went into the bathroom on my floor a woman in a hijab was brushing her teeth.
It all became normal to me very quickly. The university had made very reasonable accommodations: Stalls at the toilets, no urinals, and individual shower stalls. But the sinks were in a line and we all brushed our teeth together, which was kind of nice, frankly. And the women could have stood and watched the guys shave, although no one wanted to, in my experience.
As for Hunt’s contention about the unwanted view, I haven’t seen any anatomy in the men’s room except for the rare occasions when there is that abysmal trough. They should be outlawed. I avoid it at all costs because I don’t like getting splashed.
@Hunt I think if you allow adults getting naked with 10 year old children in locker rooms at all then yes, you should allow a transgender female to be in that locker room in any form of dress. If you don’t want your children to possibly see naked adults then have them change/ shower at home. This isn’t the case in schools. (10 yr olds don’t see naked adults)
That is why I said education. If schools would educate (in health class for one) about different sexual orientations and gender identities and include (in social studies classes) the positive contributions in history that these groups have made then perhaps we wouldn’t jump to the “freaky” or “perverted” connotations when we think of “them” in locker rooms … i.e. my son wouldn’t of been beat up … We would de-objectify or re-humanize our differences. The purpose of multi-cultural curriculum is to develop appreciation for those that are different than us. I believe that LGBT and people with disabilities should be included in this education in schools. (Right now only race and religion are in most states).
In my experience, there ins NO WAY a trans female would parade her junk flauntingly for a 10 year old to see. Most trans-females that I have been around are very private and do anything to not be exposed. Surely if a small child was in the locker room she wouldn’t expose herself…
When I said paranoia… I mean perpetuating the fear of trans females in bathrooms that is the paradigm involved in these bills…
So now we are worried about hs girls seeing s trans female… think of “I am Jazz” Who is an amazing individual!!
The reality and I think the reason the courts ruled as they did ,is there really isn’t a “pervert problem” here Jazz is just trying to go about her business in a non threatening way and in reality she faces more of a threat than any HS girl who stares and tries to see her genitalia. HS girls haven’t been found to be damaged by glimpsing a HS trans female body.
Well ladies, I will no longer stand in line to use the women’s restroom, if it’s an emergency. I will use the men’s room and there should be no argument. (Unfortunately, men’s rooms are usually disgustingly filthy).
I’m just sort of wondering after reading various news accounts, whether acw’s story is about a man who had been waiting for the opportunity to flash his stuff in the women’s locker room, as opposed to the edge of a playground or in an alley someplace - or, as seems to be the case - this guy is flashing his stuff in protest, and he wants to demonstrate stuff is going to be flashed, except the only stuff being flashed is his own, in which case he’s creating the problem, not exposing (ha) one. He’s exposing young girls to penises, so that he can protect them from being exposed to penises? Really?
ETA: I am finding a bunch of news stories about one incident in Seattle. Have there been more? I’m still googling around.
I can’t link to all this stuff because of TOS. I am reading there is a facebook page “Keep Locker Rooms Safe” that is encouraging males to use female locker rooms and vice versa. Some are encouraging men do just what happened in awc’s story.