@alh Exactly. I used to wonder why there were so many disabled parking spaces. But since I started driving my very elderly disabled mother around, I now know that there aren’t nearly enough of them. Maybe it’s human nature not to see the need for something until it’s needed by us personally. Sort of like Rob Portman was totally opposed to marriage equality, until his son came out. Weird how that works.
Proposed solution as to public bathrooms:
- Each individual determines whether s/he identifies as male, female or on a continuum in-between. No birth certificate required. This should please conservatives who favor individual rights and oppose interference by governments.
- Existing bathrooms are labeled either male, female, or male/female/family. In the male bathrooms where there is a trough, or where there are urinals with no partitions, a special, universal designation under the male symbol on the entrance door to the bathroom indicates this so females and parents with children can make an informed decision about whether to enter the bathroom. Those males who are concerned about someone walking in (in my experience, most aren't) can urinate in one of the toilets in the stalls for privacy.
- New bathrooms. Codes are changed to require individual urinals and partitions in men's rooms. (Most men's rooms have this anyway, except for some large stadiums and public parks. Tax incentives are provided to encourage private entities (gas stations, fast food restaurants) to upgrade. Incentives should be given to businesses to provide male, female, and family bathrooms (such as many hospitals already have, for example).
Locker rooms obviously require greater care in designing a reasonable accommodation that can be acceptable to most users. For those individuals who can’t accept any form of compromise, gyms could supply a small, lockable changing room (like a department store fitting room). This would seem to be a compromise that is undult burdensome.
Adding another compromise: Genitalia and breasts must be covered in saunas.
“I have to say, I’m pretty tired of this discussion. There don’t seem to be many people who are interested in trying to understand more than one point of view, or in recognizing that answers aren’t always easy. I note how few people even wanted to respond to the question of whether a compromise on bathrooms and locker rooms might be acceptable. If we can’t seek compromise, decisions will be made by people who have a vested interest in dividing us.”
The courts are ruling almost all these laws are unconstitutional. Perhaps what these states need to do is to stop passing unconstitutional laws.
As far as I know there isn’t any law preventing schools, public buildings, and other places of public accomondationfrom putting stalls in every bathroom or putting in individual shower stalls with curtains for use by everyone.
Compromise can fail the constitutional test, too. ‘Separate but Equal’ comes to mind.
I like @MYOS1634 solution for locker rooms:
Partition curtains would be good if all dressing areas were curtained. If an anatomical male is still nude in the dressing room for all to see, it’s still going to be an issue.
“Adding another compromise: Genitalia and breasts must be covered in saunas.”
Why, because you find nudity icky? No one is forcing anyone to be nude in a sauna.
“Partition curtains would be good if all dressing areas were curtained. If an anatomical male is still nude in the dressing room for all to see, it’s still going to be an issue.”
For you maybe but not for everyone.
I don’t get why someone would go into a partitioned to change, then walk around naked.
Actually I’ve never seen anyone walk around naked but all the lockers rooms I know have stalls and showers you close with a door.
766 - a lot of women would not want to see male genitalia in a sauna. Covering oneself isn't the issue.
767 - similarly, my child might be changing in a partition to protect her privacy, but that doesn't address the person not using the partition to change.
I like @Midwestdad’s compromise too.
I think saunas should be free to decide whether they’re naked saunas or not. People should know ahead of time.
I don’t know any 11 year old girl who’s initially comfortable bum-to-boob with someone else’s naked grandma. The difference is that we tell girls in the women’s changing rooms to get over it because “we’re all women here.” Why can’t we use a similar line with people of the opposite gender? Your kid glimpses a bit of body part through a crack in the curtain? “Big deal, it’s just a [fill in the body part] and half the planet has them.”
My kids are American but they’ve gone to visit their cousins in Sweden, where at the summer house everyone swims naked. Relatives, boy/girlfriends, guests-everyone strips down to dive in. It took about 5 minutes for my kids to stop caring. Kids take their cues from the adults around them.
I can’t help myself…so…the reason we can’t all use a line like @Sue22 suggests is that what we used to call “modesty” is still a big deal for a lot of people for religious and cultural reasons.
“I can’t help myself…so…the reason we can’t all use a line like @Sue22 suggests is that what we used to call “modesty” is still a big deal for a lot of people for religious and cultural reasons.”
Is that a constitutional reason to require people in sauna’s/showers must cover up?
I imagine any sauna could require it if they thought that is what their customers wanted - but making it law - I don’t think it would fly.
We have the right to dress modestly. We don’t have the right to require others to dress modestly. Acceptable nudity depends on cultural norms. I have no earthly idea what those norms are at the moment in this country.
In my bubble we take kids from the time they are infants to museums with nude statues and paintings. We don’t think any fig leaves are needed. An offended student reported a professor friend to the administration for an art history slide show with nude statues and paintings. For her family, that was against cultural norms. I think she has a right not to see that sort of nudity. I don’t believe she has the right to decide how art history classes are conducted. She is outside the norm.
However, sometimes I am going to champion those outside the norm. And will ask you to change how you conduct yourself. I may not be all that polite about it. I’m remembering the Boy Scouts.
Lately, living in a southern rural locale, I’ve had a lot of experience with differing norms. Almost every day I have to weigh what I say and how I say it. Since the neighbors aren’t avoiding me yet, and I still get invited to all the cook outs and people drop in all the time, I think I’m doing okay. Of course, it may just be my house is the only place around you can get a drink that isn’t secret moonshine in the barn.
Some people are fine with “naked”. Many are not.
Some are comfortable with their bodies. Others are not.
Some are not comfortable when others notice things on their bodies that they themselves try to forget.
All of this is personal and relates to privacy, NOT to transgender individuals.
Curtains should make everybody happy.
Some people have no issue with any public displays of nudity, such as nude beaches. Others have no trouble with single sex nude situations. Some don’t want to see others nude. Some don’t want others seeing them nude. Some would not want to be alone with a nude person of the opposite sex (hence why male doctors have a female nurse in the room when they examine a patient). You can’t just say ‘get over it’. People have different feelings about nudity.
“We have the right to dress modestly. We don’t have the right to require others to dress modestly.”
Yes, I think the solution in this area is a clearly stated, posted policy so that there are no surprises upon entering. And a reasonable accommodation for those whose values differ.
No one will need to “just get over it.” For modest individuals who neither want to be unclothed or see anyone else unclothed, provide a small, private changing area, toilet and shower. Many of the large gas stations along the Interstate seem to have no problem making the trucker private shower system work.
If I say “yes,” will you agree to at least try to consider the point I am making? The Supreme Court recognizes a right to privacy. I can’t imagine any place where that is more relevant than a bathroom or locker room. When that bathroom or locker room is operated by a government entity, then that entity has to protect the constitutional rights of everybody who might want to use it–speech, religion, equal protection of the laws, privacy, and the rest. What is the degree of privacy that a person has the right to expect in a public bathroom or locker room? Clearly, there is a disagreement here on what level of privacy that is, but I’m pretty tired of the idea that there is no issue.
Hunt, not everyone is saying there is “no issue.” Clearly there is an issue. But many of us think it can be resolved in a way that can be fair to the vast majority of people. We’re putting forth ideas. No one is requiring you to stay on this thread.
By the way, anyone who walks into a public place, or even a gym locker room, gives up at least some part of their right to privacy. Just as someone who carries a suitcase into an airport where there are sniffing dogs, or drives down a highway with a car loaded full of drugs. Rights to privacy are rarely absolute. Not even in one’s own home.
Sometimes Hunt says problems can be solved just with basic good manners.
In the case of the women’s locker room flasher, moms were concerned and asked him not to expose himself. (Since I wasn’t there, I don’t know exactly what the conversation was and have read conflicting reports) He said he didn’t have to because of the new law. If he had had good manners, he would have complied with the requests. He was trying to offend.
In the college dorms with which I’m familiar, kids on the hall try to work out nudity issues to everyone’s satisfaction. That is mannerly. imho.
I know law and manners are different, but I’m personally more interested in manners.
edit: Hunt: I hope I’m not misstating your manners’ posts. If so, apologies.