Here’s a question which maybe gets to some of the problem here: what is the purpose for having separate bathrooms and locker rooms for men and women? Is it designed to segregate people by gender identity? Or does it reflect some cultural norms in our society about “modesty” and “appropriateness?”
Agree that good manners and some sensitivity would go a long way toward solving this. The problem is, there are too many places where that is absent, and where commonsense solutions will be resisted. Until SCOTUS fixes this, how should trans be accommodated in those places?
According to many on this thread cultural norms are now clearly unconstitutional and so are gender-specific bathrooms.
We are not talking about general conversations that people have and what people decide in the privacy of their own lives. This conversation is really about law and what everyone must do. And law does have grounding in cultural noms of a society; and those laws DO NOT vary based on whom is defining them.
For example, it is illegal for my company not to have gender-specifc bathrooms in every state and every town in those states - a cultural norm codified by law that everyone had to follow. And this is the case if there were no females employed there and if no female could ever visit - still had to have the bathroom that no would use. It also became law that there must be family “baby change” amenities in the female and male bathrooms - it used to be only in female bathrooms. Had to have those too, even if babies were not allowed in the facility. Think about how stupid that is. Only a person not spending his own money could think of making such things mandatory. However, cultural norms have dictated this be done via law.
And that is the point being made in Post #783 - many cultural norms are mandatory as per the law. So it is correct that, as implied by Post #783, that many cultural norms are indeed “constitutional” for they are the basis of laws, which must pass constitutional muster. And people are acting here like those cultural norms are not constitutional and can be just shunted aside by putting up a new sign.
Therefore, Post #783 is correct in saying that people are acting like cultural norms are things, which can always be decided and changed based on whom shouts the loudest and protests the most. The simple answer is it requires much more that just changing behavior on a whim - it requires laws that protects the constitutional rights of all.
@awcntdb what state requires changing stations in bathrooms? I rarely see them in any bathrooms at all.
If you mean they’re required for mens rooms IF the womens rooms have them, that’s different.
Whether that comes from a state or a city code, I do not know. All I know is that in every new facility that we put up before I stepped aside that was required, regardless city or town. However, not seeing something does not mean not required, as not everything is retroactive in code, and codes change all the time.
“If I say “yes,” will you agree to at least try to consider the point I am making?”
No, but I’d be happy to look at any cases which support your opinion.
Here are the nudity and public decency laws of all 50 states.
@awcntdb I’m guessing it’s a city code since the only state I could find that even considered requiring them was CA and then only if they were already provided in womens rooms.
Then again, this doesn’t seem like an onerous requirement to me, for the types of places where babies might be, since that allows little tiny men and women to “go to the bathroom”, not just adults. And men are out and about with them so having access makes sense. Also I think the changing things are like $200.
" …does it reflect some cultural norms in our society about modesty and appropriateness?"
^^ yes, but those cultural norms are not permanent. The definition of modesty and appropriateness varies significantly from one person to the next, from one generation to the next,…etc.
Even if we all agreed on a definition of modesty/appropriateness, it does not answer how the bathroom law protects us from immodesty or inappropriateness. Suppose we agree that cultural norms say that young children should not be exposed to the genitalia of an opposite gender adult and make that the law of the land. How does this prevent female predators from entering a girls locker room? How does this law address the likelihood that the pervert in the boys locker room is the male coach? Excluding the opposite sex from these facilities does nothing to address these scenarios, which have actually happened and is a real threat (as opposed to a transgender person willfully exposing him/herself to a child in a public bathroom which hasn’t happened and isn’t a likely threat since doing so requires self-humiliation on the part of the so-called perpetrator).
This law also doesn’t address the question of where someone who presents as a gender different from the one assigned at birth is supposed to go or how this law will be enforced. What are we supposed to do, check someone’s pants when they need to use the bathroom?
For those who missed OspreyCV22’s link in post #712, a tongue in cheek news story about one town’s new “Gender Compliance Officer.”
http://towndock.net/newsextra/bathroom-re-opens-with-on-duty-compliance-officer
Bathroom laws (privacy) were tried before in our country but the intent was to segregate Black people from White people. The whites in power made the EXACT same arguments that seeing naked black skin or having naked blacks see their skin would somehow harm them and therefore they instituted SEPARATE BATHROOMS but guess what? The supreme court ruled Separate but equal isn’t really equal .
You all have ALREADY BEEN SHARING BATHROOMS WITH TRANSGENDER INDIVIDUALS bc they have been using the bathrooms and facilities of their gender identity all along …
GUESS WHAT? NO ONE HAS BEEN HARMED. AT ALL. PERIOD.
It is just NOW because of these laws that full grown MEN with facial hair, testosterone, deep voices, and muscles are being forced to use Women’s rooms because of their birth certificates and or they might not have had full bottom surgery yet. These are men that think like men, act like men, and without examining their penises, you have NO WAY of knowing if they are trans or cis males … To walk into a women room now seeing a man is ACTUALLY MORE DANGEROUS because you don’t know if he’s a cis male or a trans male so now you feel uncomfortable and yes NOW THERE IS EVEN MORE WAYS A CIS PERV CAN ENTER THE RESTROOM WITH YOU bc he doesn’t even have to dress like a woman…
The exact same for WOMEN… Trans-women have breasts, hormones, and look exactly like cis women but for examining between their legs…
SO here is something I want to clue you all in on… My son (and I) have worked extensively with many trans identifying individuals - he has done “ask all, tell all” panels with fellow lgbt ambassadors and Here is the nitty gritty
- Trans-women don't go walking around bathrooms with their penises hanging out. They don't even like seeing a penis. AT ALL. They will hide their penises/scrotum tucked in between their legs rather than have to look at it and be reminded.
- they use private bathroom stalls when using the bathroom ALWAYS.
- they use changing towels after showers in a group setting ... you know the towels that have velcro... they put it around themselves and change out of their swim suits with the towel around them SO YOU NEVER SEE ANYTHING.
- Trans-men wear binders on their breasts so men don't see breasts in locker rooms and the also are very apt at using changing towels to change in ... no partitions needed.
THERE HAVE BEEN ZERO PROBLEMS WITH TRANS IDENTIFYING IN LOCKER ROOMS OR BATHROOMS and schools have been allowing restrooms/locker rooms of their gender identity for years now with ZERO problems.
The complaints have come from the parents in these recent cases because of legislation.
You won’t ever see a trans persons “parts”, what you will see is the girl/boy man/woman that they are in the bathroom. You have been seeing this all along and there has been zero problems.
This should be an interesting case.
From the link above:
Yikes!
" @rhandco It has been scientifically proven that male and female brains are slightly different -certain parts are shaped different - and while these difference do exist most brains male and female are strikingly similar despite the paradox of how they process social behavior… but to say “at all. period.” is going against established medical facts. "
You sound like the Thai website for men who want to change to women, and need their voices changed. They say that all women have a certain high frequency voice pattern and men have a certain lower, not overlapping, frequency pattern.
Yet there are many cases of men with higher voices than certain women.
You say “MOST” - and I say that you are being facetious to say it is a “known fact” that there are “different shaped parts” and so on. I call bull
I like sports and I like math. So do I have a female brain that is like a male brain? Does Kaitlyn Jenner have a female brain?
This trend of thought is so wrong. Let’s bring in a Harvard researcher to show you:
My point being that there is significant overlap, such that transgendered people exist, and people like me who don’t identify with a gender exist. Yet I was perfectly capable to plop out a brood of kids, and feel fiercely protective, call it maternal or paternal, of them.
Just a gentle reminder to all: it’s transgender, not transgendered.
Transgender is an adjective (or, for some people, a noun). It is not a verb. It doesn’t have a past tense.
SMH
^^ Wow.
A Southern California high school (Santee) just designated one of its restrooms as “Gender Neutral”. This with the support and approval of the LGBT students. Another compromise.
A fertility clinic in NC has now refused to serve a same sex couple on basis of bill HB2… now ACLU has added them and another trans student to lawsuit. https://www.aclu.org/news/three-more-plaintiffs-join-lawsuit-against-north-carolinas-discriminatory-anti-lgbt-law
and Donald Trump has come out against HB2 in NC saying transgender individuals should be allowed to use bathrooms of their gender identity http://www.towleroad.com/2016/04/donald-trump-transgender/