<p>There are schools out there who have a mission of access. I care less about their selectivity and their students’ entry characteristics than their track record with such students. I’m not sure how much mileage we really get out of sneering at them for their dismal ACT average.</p>
<p>Nice to see Wisconsin with the highest scores, by far, in the B10.</p>
<p>
Community college is always an option. Far too many people have the unfortunate mentality that a four-year college (any four-year college) is indubitably a superior option to community college. Several of my own friends goofed off in high school, regretted it come decision time, went to CPCC and buckled down, and transferred to NC State and other schools.</p>
<p>TSU has a 5% 4-year graduation rate. 13% 6-year graduation rate rate. 18% 8-year graduation rate.</p>
<p>Harsh though it may seem, I’m inclined to agree with tomslawsky.</p>
<p>
If ROI was the appropriate measure for the value of a school or program, then the most prestigious and respected school in the country would be the University of Phoenix.</p>
<p>ROI ia AN appropriate measure, not THE appropriate measure. It is one way that someone can show they can positively contribute to the college. Others are high grades, test scores, leadership, etc. I’m not a big fan of holistic admissions, but if a school is going to tout it, then athletes are a prototypical example of the way the system should be used. Admitting an entire student body that isn’t capable of doing serious academic work has no good justification. We haven’t even touched on how much sub par the rigor of the classes must be when faculty are teaching to this student body every semester. Do you really think that someone with a BA/BS from one of these schools leaves the college with the same knowledge/skill base as someone from, say, pick any big east or big 10 school? I don’t care what someone tries to sell me, there is no way a prof. can teach the same depth of material to a class of students with an 850 SAT as they can teach to a class of students with an 1150SAT. Please don’t pettifog my point. </p>
<p>Where are all the “diversity freaks” on these campuses jeering about the lack of academic diversity the way they show up when the SAT and ACT scores get too high on a campus. If a school relies too much on intellectual horsepower and accomplishments, then they are scorned for not doing enough to diversify. However, these schools scrape from the bottom of the barrel and to boot, are given a pass on the diversity card, noone is screaming that the campus is lacking in intellectual culture because there aren’t enough people at the top of the curve.</p>
<p>Ironic, isn’t it?</p>
<p>
In general, no. But why stop there? Do you really think that someone with a BA/BS from Iowa State or West Virginia U has the same knowledge/skill base as someone from, say, Caltech or Yale?</p>
<p>After all, there is no way a prof. can teach the same depth of material to a class of students with an 1150 SAT as they can teach to a class of students with an 1400 SAT. Right?</p>
<p>Why should taxpayers subsidize state schools at all, if they can’t maintain the same academic standards as private schools?</p>
<p>The attitude here is appalling.</p>
<p>With the school above, roughly 1/3 of the students had a GPA that was over a 3.0. A 3.0 is a solid B average and is nothing to be ashamed of. Similarly, another 1/3 had a C+ average - not earth shattering, but not horrid by any means.</p>
<p>As hard as it may be for people here on CC to understand, not everyone is a straight A, 2400 SAT student. Thank God! What an incredibly boring world that would be!</p>
<p>Thankfully, there are many schools for these types of students. And watch out - because one of them just might be your boss one day!</p>
<p>Geez…I hate such elitist attitudes…</p>
<p><<tsu has=“” a=“” 5%=“” 4-year=“” graduation=“” rate.=“” 13%=“” 6-year=“” rate=“” 18%=“” 8-year=“”>></tsu></p>
<p>My college had similar stats. But it was primarily a commuter college and most students were working part-time and many were working full-time and going to school at night. Those students often took 7-10 years to finish a degree - especially if they had families.</p>
<p>Later on, when I worked for the college, the graduation rate issue came up at a meeting. I did a study for the College of Business that showed that over 75% of students who enrolled in the CBA eventually graduated. The focus was not on the length of time it took - but whether or not the students completed their degrees. In the end - that’s the number that really counts.</p>
<p>I dare anyone to beat this</p>
<p>[College</a> Search - Paul Quinn College - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>
<p>SAT Critical Reading: 210 - 450 50%
SAT Math: 230 - 440 50%
SAT Writing: 240 - 480 50%
ACT Composite: 8 - 16 43%</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Florida, not Floroda. Incompetent, not incompetant. I’ll assume leaderaship was a typo. Scandals, not scandals. Embezzlement, not embeslement. Its, not it’s. Accreditation, not accreditation. You’re hardly in a position to be critiquing other schools or other students.</p>
<p>BTW, what’s wrong with a college or university catering to students who are less academically able? That doesn’t make it the “worst college.”</p>
<p>@James098…that basically says that about 50% of students got a 200 on each section of the SAT. How is that possible?</p>
<p>"Florida, not Floroda. Incompetent, not incompetant. I’ll assume leaderaship was a typo. Scandals, not scandals. Embezzlement, not embeslement. Its, not it’s. Accreditation, not accreditation. You’re hardly in a position to be critiquing other schools or other students.</p>
<p>BTW, what’s wrong with a college or university catering to students who are less academically able? That doesn’t make it the “worst college.”"</p>
<p>Thank you for correcting my typos. That undoubtedly is an effective way to pick apart the completely accurate picture I painted of Florida A and M University. It’s actually funny that you think “leadership” was a typo, but not “Florida”, a state I lived in for 14 years and two of my degrees came from schools with the name “Florida” in them. Not that you need an explanation- but since I was using an old computer, as I always do, my first draft is quick and careless. I relied on an online spell checker, but apparently when I was finished, I didn’t copy/paste it- missed a button and didn’t bother to re-check. If that makes me a dummy in your eyed, sobeit :)</p>
<p>The fact that you would discredit a rational argument based on misspellings speaks volumes as to your intellectual ability and maturity. Then again, it’s always easier to attack the messenger then it is to attack the message. To the intellectally immature, it is very effective, too. Had you stopped before you typed your last sentence, I would have been 100% OK with the post.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So are we to infer that you care nothing for academic excellence, and find the complete absence of it at a supposed institution of higher learning just fine and dandy?</p>
<p>Are you also okay with anyone who signs up playing on the football team? </p>
<p>Somehow I doubt it. People who say it is “elitist” to differentiate between levels of academic talent and achievement rarely extend that to other areas of endeavor, especially sports.</p>
<p>“In general, no. But why stop there? Do you really think that someone with a BA/BS from Iowa State or West Virginia U has the same knowledge/skill base as someone from, say, Caltech or Yale?”</p>
<p>In a word, yes. Or at least very close. A standard curricula is typically set to study at a certain depth of rigor. Once a student body reaches a sort of “threshold” level of competence, it will be capable of studying the material in the required amount of depth. Sure, individually, someone with, say a 115 IQ might have to struggle a bit and study harder to understand calculus than someone with a 130 IQ, but the ability to understand the material is there. </p>
<p>In essence, there might be a difference between studying engineering at Cornell and studying it at Penn State, but that difference I would guess is minimal, although the Cornell student body might grasp the material easier. However, the difference between a student body with an average SAT of 800 and that of a student body with an 1150 SAT is a lot greater than the difference between student bodies with 1150 and 1400, at least with capability of the rigor and intellectual depth that can be studied. If 90% of the student body struggles with basic algebra, how can the school focus on diff equations?</p>
<p>By definition, colleges agree with my point of view, or they wouldn’t require standardized exams as part of the process. OK, there are some colleges that have done away with this requirement, but they, at this point in time are fringe.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Bowdoin and Bates, just to name two, are not “fringe.”</p>
<p>The real reason why schools are “scores optional” is up for debate, of course. Since only students with good scores submit them, it enables the insitutions in question to present higher average scores for ranking purposes. Few have the intestinal fortitude to opt out of USN&WR.</p>
<p>Paul Quinn is a tiny historically black college (usually 400 students - down to 150 this year). It keeps losing its accreditation, then they appeal and folks who think it is important to maintain historically black colleges write op ed pieces in the paper, and the school limps along for another year. (School just started there on Oct 5th.)</p>
<p>[Paul</a> Quinn College begins fall semester | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Breaking News for Dallas-Fort Worth | Dallas Morning News](<a href=“http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-paulquinn_06met.ART.State.Edition2.4c0568a.html]Paul”>http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-paulquinn_06met.ART.State.Edition2.4c0568a.html)</p>
<p>Several historically black universities mentioned on this thread. Paul Quinn, Texas Southern, Arkansas-Pine Bluff. Seems like there is a subliminal message here. </p>
<p>This is a horrible topic.</p>
<p><<this is=“” a=“” horrible=“” topic.=“”>></this></p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>^^^^ Then don’t read it. If you don’t want to participate in good, fact driven reasonable debate because it is politically incorrect to do so, then simply don’t participate. Wasn’t that easy?</p>
<p>Look for all of you people who would defend these schools, let me make an analogy:</p>
<p>What if your state legislators introduced a bill to open a new music school. This school was going to increase taxes. It’s mission was to recruit people with little to no musical aptitude and run them through a curricula designed to turn talented, in the rough musicians into working professional musicians. This school had no standards, and as such, almost anyone with rich musical talent would chose to go elsewhere and the only people going to this school was people who had no aptitude. Would that make sense? Of course not. Replace “music school” with “mechanic school” for people who have no mechanical aptitude or a school designed to teach runway modeling that who’s student body was 40+ and over 300 pounds. All of these schools to be paid for by tax revenue. they would have the same “business model” as the state schools that survive despite awful academics. You see, when political correctness and emotion are removed from the equation, the topic becomes very cut and dry.</p>
<p>The fact is, whether one wants to believe it or not, not everyone has the same talent/ability base. College is for higher learning-not everyone is cut out for it. Mechanic school is for people with mechanical aptitude- not everyone is cut out for that the- same with music school, acting school, etc. When a student body SAT/ACT score is below the national average, it indicates that the body is not either capable or ready at this point in time for the rigors of college work. A better use of resources would be to guide people towards developing skills in fields that they have an aptitude for. </p>
<p>To the race baiters:</p>
<p>And for the race hucksters- stop dragging race into this, will you. Why is it that someone always has to do that. It is funny how the only ones playing the race card are the ones trying to shut people up. Get over it, it’s about numbers, dollars, and ultimately, doing the right thing by both the student bodies and tax payers. There are PLENTY of schools that take ALL qualified applicants, regardless of race. In fact, at many schools, being a qualified minority is an advantage over a well qualified non minority.</p>
<p>“Several historically black universities mentioned on this thread. Paul Quinn, Texas Southern, Arkansas-Pine Bluff. Seems like there is a subliminal message here.”</p>
<p>oh, the race card…wow, shocking that someone would play that! Trying to use emotion to shut down good fair debate, are we?</p>
<p>Just the fact that you had to mention they are black colleges speaks volumes. I believe that the colleges should be judged FAIRLY, and not knowing they are black colleges makes the discussion race blind and thus more fair.</p>