Would a Harvard Extension School degree hold the same weight as a Harvard degree?

sakky · February 20, 2008, 8:03pm

Ah, but the plot does thicken. I think it’s safe to say that the Chavez case is an AA case: after all, consider the family surname and, more importantly, the quote of one of the daughters: 'One of the main things for my mom was to have a voice. [She taught us to] take pride in our heritage, speak the language"

Now, I don’t want to get into the politics of AA, but I think we can agree that ‘checkmarking the box’ that declares one to be a URM does indeed significantly bypass much of the standard admissions process. Now, maybe that’s socially just, maybe it’s socially unjust (again, this gets to the politics of AA, which I don’t want to dwell upon), but nevertheless, the bottom line is that checkmarking that box does make it easier for you to get in than if you didn’t checkmark the box.

The upshot is that certain people (i.e. children of famous legacies like the Gores, URM’s, athletes) find it significantly easier to get into Harvard College than do others. Yet, as far as I can tell, nobody is advocating these people ‘disclose’ that fact to employers. But, hey, in a world of full disclosure, that’s precisely what you should do, right? After all, you wouldn’t want to ‘mislead’ employers into thinking that you underwent the standard admissions process when you did not, right? That is indeed what the logic of full disclosure would imply.

RubenB84 · February 20, 2008, 8:18pm

They’re probably not. The issue has to do with the opinion that Harvard is an extremely prestigious school and such a school should not feature a institution that fits the non-traditional student. Wash U in St. Louis has a program like the Extension School, so does Georgetown, Tulane, NYU, Northwestern and UVA. All of them are non-traditional schools yet none of them are scrutinized as much as the Extension School. That is primarily why I chose to attend one of the other schools listed above rather than the ES; because no one cares if I attend the non-trad over the trad.

Agree with you on the first part, but not on the second. The College degree should always be viewed as the superior degree. No one challenges that aspect. But the Extension degree should be viewed in its own light. There are a lot of aspects which make the degree very rigorous. That is why the graduation rate of the ES is always in the low hundreds. There just aren’t that many people that can withstand the program’s stringent requirements and drop out or transfer.

Maybe some classes aren’t but I fail to see how the classes taught at the ES by the same Harvard professors who teach at the College are less rigorous? I will concede that the environment is very different, but the material is the same.
I think the question shouldn’t be whether an employer would see the the HES degree in the same light as another degree from Harvard, but that would an employer view an HES degree in its own light? I mean not all Harvard degrees are seen in the same light; an HBS degree is higherr regarded than a degree from the Divinity School or Education school and so on.

RubenB84 · February 20, 2008, 8:25pm

Excellent point, sakky. It’s merely a social thing. Some people would rather give more credence to Harvard’s rather byzantine admissions process than one like the Extension School’s which is purely based on merit. The College does admit exceptional students, no doubt about this, but there are some, like sakky pointed out that were admitted based on circumstances outside of academics.

Bay · February 20, 2008, 8:44pm

I guess sakky made the case for fully disclosing your HES degree. Heaven forbid some employer might assume that you were admitted to Harvard because of Daddy’s money or AA or because you could throw a football.

sakky · February 20, 2008, 9:04pm

I am simply pointing out the selective indignation and asking why that is. It’s somehow “OK” when somebody gets into Harvard College because of Daddy’s money, and so he doesn’t need to disclose this fact. Yet it’s somehow “not OK” when somebody gets a Harvard degree through the extension school and hence he needs to disclose this fact. Why the difference? Either way, somebody got a Harvard degree through nontraditional means.

sakky · February 20, 2008, 9:15pm

I don’t know, is that true?

Consider Latanya Sweeney, Assc Professor of Computer Science at Carnegie Mellon. She got her ALB at the Harvard Extension School (and note how her CV just says “ALB in computer science” with no mention of the extension school at all). She was able to successfully parley that extension degree to get into the graduate CS program at MIT, and from there, got placed at the CS department at Carnegie Mellon, which is one of the top-ranked computer science departments in the country. Hence, it seems to me that her extension degree prepared her for a highly successful academic career.

[Dr</a>. Latanya Sweeney, Curriculum Vitae](<a href=“http://privacy.cs.cmu.edu/people/sweeney/cv.html]Dr”>http://privacy.cs.cmu.edu/people/sweeney/cv.html)

[Biographical</a> sketches of Latanya Sweeney, Ph.D.](<a href=“http://privacy.cs.cmu.edu/people/sweeney/bio.html]Biographical”>http://privacy.cs.cmu.edu/people/sweeney/bio.html)

RubenB84 · February 20, 2008, 9:28pm

You could argue that its always been a tradition.

Northstarmom · February 20, 2008, 10:59pm

"The upshot is that certain people (i.e. children of famous legacies like the Gores, URM’s, athletes) find it significantly easier to get into Harvard College than do others. Yet, as far as I can tell, nobody is advocating these people ‘disclose’ that fact to employers. "

There’s nothing to disclose. No one ever knows why exactly they were accepted to Harvard except for the fact that to get in, they had to have an academic background and stats that indicated to Harvard’s adcoms that if admitted, they’d have the ability to graduate.

The fact that Harvard has the highest graduation rate in the country – typically around 97% – is further evidence that the college isn’t admitting students who can’t do the work.

RubenB84 · February 20, 2008, 11:32pm

Well no one indicated that those students were any less a Harvard students than others. They were just admitted through a different process. The point is Harvard sets the rules and opens their doors to whom ever the please. No one is less of a Harvard student than the other.

sakky · February 21, 2008, 9:09am

And similarly, I could argue that there is nothing to ‘disclose’ when you’re talking about the extension school. After all, if Harvard admits you, for whatever reason, to one of the extension school degree programs (and yes, there is an admissions process for those degree programs), then, in Harvard’s eyes, you are a fully fledged Harvard degree-earning student. Note, you’re not a Harvard College student, but you never claimed to be one.

Again, as a case in point, consider Professor Latanya Sweeney, whose bio I posted above. Her bachelor’s degree is from the Extension School, but she makes no mention of this fact on her CV. You just have to know that her ALB degree comes from the Extension School. Her CV provides no hint of this fact. Would anybody like to assert that she - who is a professor at a top department - is lying or otherwise being unethical?

<a href=“http://privacy.cs.cmu.edu/people/sweeney/cv.pdf[/url]”>http://privacy.cs.cmu.edu/people/sweeney/cv.pdf</a>

Uh, that doesn’t mean much. It simply indicates to me that ‘the work’ really isn’t that hard. I believe Harvard College admissions officers themselves have stated that the vast majority of rejected candidates were probably good enough to do the work. But they were never even given the chance because they were never admitted in the first place. At the same time, you have other people who get an admissions boost because they won the ‘genetic lottery’ (i.e. legacies like the Gore kids).

The point is, again, I don’t see any operational difference between the disclosure policies of somebody getting into Harvard College via a backdoor (i.e. legacies) and somebody earning a degree through the extension school. The former is not required to disclose precise information regarding exactly how they got into the school. So why should the latter?

redlinekid2 · February 23, 2008, 12:25pm

Unlike Harvard College, the Harvard Extension School allows you to enroll in classes before you apply to the ALB degree program. To me, this is an important feature that HES provides, as it would allow a perspective student to test himself and see if the school is a right fit for his abilities and academic interests. This is the main reason as to why I want to go to HES.

Most of the 15K students who are attending HES are only taking classes that either holds their interests, or using those hard earned credits to suppliment their existing degree programs at other schools. Most don’t apply to the degree program in large numbers because the classes take at lot of time and commitment to complete. And given that most of the classes are only offered one day a week, that is a lot of work for most people to handle. Especially if one wants to be a full-time student.

Unlike Columbia GS and Penn CGS, which allows their students to take classes in the daytime with the regular college crowd, HES doesn’t offer that option to just anyone. For that, the student has to earn Special Student Status, which would limit them to two classes per term for one year at Harvard College. Thus, HES is basically a nightime program. So the school is not a backdoor to Harvard College. As a Special Student, you are allowed to take classes that are not offered at HES. It’s a long and difficult process, from what I read about.

Nevertheless, the school givens a student the rare opportunty of obtaining a Ivy League education at a great price. In addition, HES gives a student the chance to signup for classes without the trouble of applying for admission first. Only if you’re going into the degree program after completing the first 3-4 classes(including the Expository Writing Class) with a “B” or better, which are not easy to get.

tindacity · March 2, 2008, 11:01am

Greetings, I’m new and wanted to jump in here.

I have a Masters Degree from Harvard University (not the Extension School) in Biological Anthropology. I was on the Ph.D. track, but had to leave early due to medical reasons.

I plan on obtaining a second Masters in a different concentration, this time from the Extension School…I’ll probably start this summer or fall.

I am VERY happy the Extension School exists – my personal circumstances prevent me from taking a full-time courseload during the day. The Extension School offers what looks like the same quality education, but I’ll have a lot more time to finish (I’ll be able to take one or two classes a term, mainly at night).

Why do I think it’s the same quality…? Well, as others have mentioned, anyone can sign up for a class. HOWEVER, in order to be admitted to the program, one must have taken three classes and obtained a B or higher in each. I think that’s the kicker. Just anyone can sign up, but once you’re in, I suspect you’ll only be able to stay if you have the smarts/wherewithal to handle the courses in an appropriately intelligent fashion. I suspect that’s where the screening comes in. So perhaps just anyone can sign up, but not just anyone will actually be admitted. If you can’t swing the B plus grade on every course, you’re not going to make it.

I wonder if there are public stats on the number of folks taking classes vs. the number of folks admitted into an Extension Degree program…? Meaning, there may be tons of folks enrolled, but only a small percentage may be able to stay due to low marks…?

henry23 · April 7, 2008, 7:17am

I have seen many schools are not accredited. Having a American degree
means now trouble abroad?

mochamaven · April 7, 2008, 5:46pm

I think it’s funny when people dismiss Ivy League courseloads as “easy.” If Harvard is anything like Yale, “easy” is about the last word I’d use to describe any of the classes here. I consider my workload this year to be medium, but when I talk to my friends at other schools, I have 3x or more work than they do! The reason Ivy Leagues have such high graduation is indeed because they admit students who can handle the work. They get to pick and choose whomever they’d like, when they’re only admitting 1,800 out of 20,000+ applicants, they really get to be selective.

T26E4 · October 14, 2009, 8:14am

and your reason for dredging up this years old thread???

siserune · October 14, 2009, 4:12pm

I hadn’t seen this earlier thread, but yes, her CV appears to contain a specific and rather amazing falsity. She claims to have “delivered [a/the] Harvard University … graduation speech” after graduating in 1995. The speakers at the June 1995 commencement can be found online, and none of them are named Latanya.

[The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Students to Speak at Graduation](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=237689]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=237689)
[The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Class Day Speeches Remember, Look Forward](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=242294]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=242294)

Ms. Sweeney’s CV reads as follows:

Delivering a speech at some point as part of a separate Extension School graduation function is very, very different from giving a “Harvard University … graduation speech”. The latter is a big deal, the speakers are chosen competitively, and it’s pretty hard for anyone who has attended a Harvard graduation ceremony to not know the difference. The Extension School ALB and ALM graduates attend that ceremony in June in Harvard Yard, along with the graduates from all the other branches of Harvard and thousands of onlookers. It’s not uncommon for the ceremony (usually the dignitaries who give a speech, but sometimes the student speeches as well) to get national publicity. I have never heard of any Extension School (or January degree) ceremony being noticed in any national, state or local media, and yeah, it looks like Prof. Sweeney is deliberately claiming to have spoken at the big show.

HUEALB · July 8, 2010, 9:26am

Latanya Arvette Sweeney, Ph.D. is a professor at MIT and she is a graduate of the Harvard University Extension School. Clearly MIT considers a receiving a degree from HES to be equal in significance to a degree from HC. The following link will send you to her Curriculum Vitae.

[Dr</a>. Latanya Sweeney, Curriculum Vitae](<a href=“http://dataprivacylab.org/people/sweeney/cv.html]Dr”>Dr. Latanya Sweeney, Curriculum Vitae)

HUEALB · July 8, 2010, 9:41am

Harvard University Extension School Notable Alumni

[Harvard</a> Extension School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Extension_School]Harvard”>Harvard Extension School - Wikipedia)

Education and academia

Robert Allison, ALB - Chair of the Department of History at Suffolk University[34]
Bruce Berg, CSS ’04 — Director of Development Research, Northeastern University
Sarah M. Buel, AB ’87 — Clinical professor at the University of Texas School of Law; Adjunct Professor at Harvard Medical School
Suzanne Koven, ALM ’08 - Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School
Latanya Sweeney, ALB ’95 — Professor at Carnegie Mellon University; Visiting Professor at MIT and Harvard[35][36]

Arts and entertainment

Charles Coolidge, CSS ’01 — Sculptor, School of Museum of Fine Arts
Kirsten Gould, ALM ’98 — Drama Department Chair, the Fenn School; Concord, Massachusetts
Matthew Ruggiero, AA ’82, ALB ’84 — Bassoonist (retired), Boston Symphony Orchestra
Kris Snibbe, ALM ’07 — Photographer, Harvard University
Allan Crite, ALB ’68 — Noted African-American Artist

Politics and Government

Álvaro Uribe, CSS ’93 — 56th President of Republic of Colombia.
Francisco Santos Calderón, CSS — 9th Vice President of Republic of Colombia.
Bradley Jones, Jr., AA ’87, ALB ’88 — Massachusetts House of Representatives.
Kumiki Gibson, ALB ’85 — Chief Counsel to 45th Vice President of the United States Al Gore; Former Vice President and General Counsel of Johns Hopkins University.
Ann Romney, AB ’75 — Former First Lady of Massachusetts.
Chris Wakim — Former member of West Virginia House of Delegates
James A. Aloisi, Jr., ALM ’98 — former Massachusetts Secretary of Transportation.

Law

Carol Avard-Hicks, ABE ’71 — Partner, Avard Law Offices
Mark Gold, ALM ’05 — Partner, Grinnell, Dubendorf, & Smith, LLP
John Jewett, CSS ’01 — Managing Director, House Counsel, LLC
Martha Rose Reeves, CSS ’98 — US Administrative Law Judge, Social Security Administration

Business

Francesca Aguilar, CSS ’98 — Manager, Global Sports Partnerships, The Coca-Cola Company
Linda Attiyeh, ABE ’61 — Director, McKinsey & Company
James Stillman, CSS ’99 — Financial Analyst, McKinsey & Company
Henry Berry, ALM ’99 — Chief Executive Officer, H. T. Berry Company Inc.
David Fleming, CSS ’05 — Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Warren Resources
Rachel Griffiths, CMS ’00 — Owner, Teaching Creatures
Gregory Michaud, ALM ’97 — Executive Vice President, Watts Water Technologies
Sal Perisano, ALM ’87 — Chairman and CEO, iParty
Michael Richard, CSS ’98 — Associate Principal, The Hale Group
Mark Canha, CSS ’98 — Venture Partner, Prism VentureWorks
Richard Peisch, ABE ’76 — Founder and President, Medical Data Processing, Inc.
Todd Rideman, AA ’99, ALB ’02 — Real Estate Development, Rideman Investments
John Vermilye, ALB ’80 — Founder and CEO, Travel Sentry, Inc.
Barbara Augusta, CSS ’97 — Vice President, Business Process and Technology, Fidelity Investments
Maliz Beams, CSS ’83 — Executive Vice President, TIAA-CREF
George Krupp, ALB ’95 — Co-founder, The Berkshire Group
Joseph Muratore, CSS ’03 — Principal, Centerra Capital
Craig Poler, CSS ’97 — Senior Vice President, NuCoastal Trading Co.
Janice Shields, ALM ’05 — Managing Director and Co-Founder, Shields and Company Inc.
Charles Harper, CSS ’97 — Executive Director and Senior Vice President, John Templeton Foundation
Levani Lipton, CSS ’05 — Executive Director, Ananda Foundation

Healthcare and Biotechnology

Kenneth Corroon, ALM ’97 — Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Harmony Pharmacy
Roanna London, CAS ’99 — Scientist, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals
Elias Reichel, AB ’82, CSS ’99 — Vitreoretinal Surgeon, New England Eye Center
Joy Thompson, CSS ’98 — President, Nara Luxury Medical Spa Consulting
Carolina Vallucci, CSS ’98 — International Field Marketing Manager, Genzyme Corp.

Information technology

Rory Cowan, ABE ’79 — CEO, Lionbridge Technologies Incorporated
John Elms, ALB ’95 — President and CEO, Azalea Networks
Robert Maginn, ALM ’81 — CEO and Chairman of the Board of Directors, Jenzabar, Inc.
Punit Shah, ALM ’10 - Co-Founder and Chief Visionary Officer, CallFire.com

HUEALB · July 8, 2010, 9:47am

In 2007 Harvard Extension School student, Michael G. Svestka, was the co-captain of the Harvard Polo team.

[Ride</a> Those Ponies | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2007/2/7/ride-those-ponies-for-most-polo/]Ride”>The Harvard Crimson)

sakky · July 8, 2010, 9:51am

I’m afraid I don’t see the ‘falsity’. She never claimed to have delivered the official university-wide commencement speech. What she said is that she delivered a graduation speech, which could well have meant delivering a simple speech to the graduating extension students. That’s not false.

Keep in mind that a resume/CV is not a testimonial to God. It’s a marketing statement, nothing more. It is a document meant to put you in the best possible light.

Put another way, such ‘puffery’ - if that is indeed the proper characterization - is what companies do all the time. I recently saw an ad describing The Last Airbender as an “exhilirating thrill ride”, never mind that it’s one of the worst-reviewed movies of the year - an instant Razzie front-runner. McDonald’s always exhibits its food in the most delicious manner possible within its advertising - while of course always neglecting to mention the calories. Most egregiously, breweries would have you believe that you will attract a swarm of gorgeous bikini models merely by cracking open a can of their beer.

What advertisers can’t do is state an outright lie - for example, drinking Budweiser will instantly land you a date with Jessica Alba. But they are perfectly free to imply and insinuate. Similarly, people are perfectly free to imply all manners of accomplishments on their resumes, as long as they aren’t outright lies. Again, Sweeney never said that she delivered the official Harvard commencement speech. She simply said that she delivered a graduation speech, without mentioning what sort of speech that is. That’s not a lie, by the same logic that never mentioning her HES connection is also not a lie.

Would a Harvard Extension School degree hold the same weight as a Harvard degree?

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