Would I struggle much in a doctorate program?

Graduate School
1

I’m currently an undergrad student. I’m triple majoring: computer science, philosophy, and psychology.

For the most part, my work has been easy; I usually spend 15-25 hours per week on my school work, and my GPA is 4. And in my psychology courses, I’m generally the top dog or close to it. But in my philosophy courses, my fellow students also make intelligent posts (for the most part). So, I seem to be only approximately average in this major; I suppose that’s a feat, considering that the average IQ for philosophy graduates is 129.

Per the data I’ve found, the average IQ of a PhD holder is 125. And I assume that if you’re average in your program, you have to struggle. My IQ is 121, so I’d struggle even more.

It may also help to know some of my strengths and weaknesses.

On the strengths side, I have Asperger’s; I can dedicate impressive focus to my interests. I’m critically minded and very able to break things (philosophical arguments, research studies, etc.). Lastly, my verbal ability is notably my best trait.

On the weaknesses side, my long and short term memory are only average, at 100 IQ. I get very frustrated with this.

I’d like to earn a D.Th (Doctorate in Theology). However, I’ve been wondering if it would be worth earning, considering the difficulty. In your opinion, how much would I struggle?

2

The difference between an IQ of 121 and an IQ of 125 (or 129) is smaller than the sampling error between taking an IQ test one day and taking a different IQ test the next day. This tiny difference is meaningless. To a large extent IQ does not mean much either.

What matters is what you want to do with your life, and how hard you want to work to get there. IQ tests do not measure either of these qualities at all.

I am wondering what you would do after obtaining a doctorate in theology.

3

  1. Right, but IQ is a proxy for the difficulty of achieving those things. I implied but didn’t state: I don’t doubt that I can earn a doctorate. Rather, I’m questioning the value vs. the effort. I don’t have enough knowledge about typical coursework to approximate the difficulty.

  2. My purpose is merely to add a credential to the theological books that I write. Writing doesn’t pay, I just enjoy it; and I think I’d get more readers if I had a D.Th. Computer science (software development) is my career goal.

4

If you want the D.Th., go for it. Stop worrying about IQ numbers. They are immaterial. Grad school is a horrendous slog. Persistence is what matters in getting through to the end.

5

Agree that persistence & determination are probably the most important factors.

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In other words, yes: I’d struggle. That’s why I need determination.
Thanks.

7

I don’t equate hard work to struggling. If you are driven and motivated, go for it! Don’t second guess yourself. Sounds like you are doing quite well in college. No reason to think you won’t be able to handle grad school.

8

I doubt you’d necessarily get more readers if you had a doctoral degree in theology. There are lots of popular theological books that are written by people with few to no educational credentials; usually, what matters most is the popularity of the author prior to writing the book and/or the popularity of the message they’re trying to offer. (The exception, of course, is if you want to do theological research or write books for scholars of theology. In that case, you do need a credential).

Furthermore, why pursue a D.Th? The M.Div would seem to be a more fitting degree for you.

Personally, I don’t think a desire to write books in the area is a good reason to get a doctoral degree (unless, of course, by writing books you mean you want to do research and write academic/scholarly books, as I mentioned).

As for whether you’d struggle: yes, because everybody struggles in a doctoral program, regardless of their intelligence. Intelligence, honestly, is not the marker of someone’s success in a doctoral program. Most people who get into doctoral programs are smart and were at or near the tops of their college classes. Hard work and persistence, as someone else mentioned, is what separates successful students from those who are not.

I have a terrible short-term memory and I have a PhD. Of course, like everyone else, I struggled in my PhD program (not with the content or material, but with the challenge of doing so much at once).

Value vs. effort is completely a personal determination. It really depends on how much having a doctoral degree is worth to you with respect to your career goals and personal motivations for getting one.

9

Excellent post!

From what I’ve seen, MDiv programs are aimed at training you for (face-to-face) ministerial work. I don’t enjoy that, I want to stick to writing; I think that a MABS would be more appropriate. However, the school I’m most interested in has an MDiv but not a MABS, so that’s probably what I’ll go for.

I definitely need to reconsider pursuing a ThD, given your input. Writing to theologians isn’t my goal. Rather, I’d like to write to a large audience, but (almost) in the style of a theologian. I don’t like having a small audience (result of ThD). Although, I realize that if the audience is theologians, then I have their audience as well (so to speak). But, the topics that I cover are impulsively rejected by almost all western theologians. And no, these are not major doctrines; I’m not a heretic (per common usage of “heretic.”)

I have one question. You mentioned that I may not get more readers with a ThD, but the readers that I do get – would my presentations garner much more acceptance from them, in your opinion? Again, remember that my target audience is not theologians. And let’s assume that I’ll have a ThM even if I don’t get a ThD.

10

You are an accomplished student. This won’t change. If this is what you want to do then go for it. Don’t worry about others. Worry about yourself. Will graduate school be more difficult. Probably and why it’s graduate school. Many people struggle to get through. But they finish and continue with their careers. Something tells me you will be fine. Yes, determination and persistence as stated always wins. It’s not really how smart you are. Many smart people drop out of graduate school or any school. Students with determination and persistence usually finish. How smart you are or your IQ is just part of the equation. It’s not the whole equation. Your gonna be fine. Good Luck.

11

“From what I’ve seen, MDiv programs are aimed at training you for (face-to-face) ministerial work.”

Well…that’s true in theory and in the original orientation of many M.Div programs, but not true in practice or usage. I’ve known several people with M.Divs who are not doing ministerial service, and who used them as the basis for academic or scholarly study in religion/theology. For example, Yale Divinity School says of their M.Div: “The degree of Master of Divinity (M.Div.) certifies completion of a program of theological studies designed primarily, although not exclusively, to prepare the candidate for ordination to the Christian ministry.”

And Duke: "The Master of Divinity (M.Div.) program is a three-year degree that prepares students for a wide range of ministries in the church, academy, and world. "

And Harvard:" Graduating MDiv students leave HDS with a toolkit that prepares them to serve within a religious community, to explore the spiritually formative dimension of intellectual work, to evaluate and act on the needs and questions of religious communities and beyond, and to speak with both a pastoral and a public voice."

The last one is particularly relevant to you, I think, since you say that you want to write to a large audience in the style of a theologian. If you want to speak to people of faith (especially Christians) with the voice of someone who is an expert in theology, an M.Div may be especially useful to you because you will learn both the theology AND the pastoral/reaching people part.

However, if you intend to do deep academic research into theology and then write books for popular audiences about it, a ThD may be a decent choice. It’ll teach you to do the research and give you 6-8 years to deep academic theological scholarship. However, that degree is geared towards preparing academic theologians (folks who will go onto teach students in theology at a university), and the writing is going to be largely academic. The way you will be taught to interact with others will also be largely academic. You’re going to have to do some personal work “on the side,” so to speak, to hone your craft to a popular audience.

As for the latter - I don’t know? In my opinion, you’d probably get more acceptance from some and less or no change from others; in the end, it may just be a wash. From my field of psychology, there doesn’t seem to be a strong correlation. One of the most popular writers in it is Malcolm Gladwell, who doesn’t hold any advanced degree at all - much less a doctoral degree. (He also frequently gets the social science wrong, much to the irritation of social scientists.) Simon Sinek is another popular author without an advanced degree in social sciences who writes about psychology (and usually gets it wrong). On the other hand, some other very popular authors who write about psychology - like Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Claude Steele - are psychologists with PhDs who have done decades of research in the field and write from their wealth of experience. Maria Konnikova is an interesting midway experience - she began writing about psychology after getting a BA in psychology (and studying with Steven Pinker), but later got a PhD in psychology.

So, in my opinion: I don’t think it matters, especially if you would do a master’s degree either way. If your opinions are controversial, you MAY get a little more clout if you do have a PhD and can say that you backed it up with scholarship…but with a popular audience? Eh, maybe not.

12

Your response was very insightful, and I think you’ve convinced me that a ThD isn’t worth my time. Thank you for that, and for correcting my understanding of the M.Div.

I think that I’ll take the time this saves and use it for learning my topics and write about them, and for improving in English, rhetoric, etc.

13

When considering grad school potential, the first place to start is with current profs who can rate your suitability. It feels like so many kids on CC want to talk grad school, but miss the role of their advisors- in assessing, guiding…and recommending you, when you apply. Grad school doesn’t happen in a vacuum.

I know plenty of folks with MDiv degrees who never played any ministerial role. You need to be researching the various programs, as J points out.

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D’s getting PhD in theology at Yale. Started with MAR-theology at Yale Divinity school. A good number of professors went from MDiv to PHD. So not unusual but can also look at MAR (masters of arts in religion). Many students going for MDiv were interested in areas other than direct ministry.