Nearly all of the discussions around elite (not just Ivy) admissions come down to a comparison of stats and hooks, with the underlying assumption that applicants with a real shot are either academic superstars (or all-American athletes). Is it even remotely possible that Yale, say, would look seriously at an applicant who hasn’t made it his/her life’s work to fatten up that resume, but who shows enormous promise and genuine curiosity? It might look like this:
32 ACT (36 English)
3.85 GPA (at rigorous prep school)
Five APs
Heavy involvement in theater and dance
Good ECAs
Great recs
Killer essays (future writing/lit major)
No admission hooks. But let’s also assume that the student fell in love with Yale, and would express that convincingly.
It seems that Yale, maybe alone among the top tier schools, might be willing to actually consider admitting such an applicant. Then again, that might just be the image Yale tries to project as somehow being quirky enough to break the mold, when really they’re just crunching numbers like everyone else.
And, yes, this is a “hypothetical” based on an actual (potential) applicant.
But is the idea itself just pie in the sky?
A 32 ACT is in the 25th percentile of acceptances, as I am sure you know. My guess is that many of them are seriously hooked. The 5 APs, depending upon the HS offerings, may be a bit light. Now if it were a 34-35 ACT with 6-8 APs, then I would say yes, it is possible.
Yes, but if those were the numbers, Yale wouldn’t really be “taking a flier,” would they? I realize we’re talking about an applicant pool of incredible overachievers, but surely 34-35 ACT and 6-8 APs doesn’t make you an outlier… does it?
Eh, why would Yale do that when it has thousands of applicants with better stats, more rigorous courseloads, amazing achievements, AND who also show enormous promise and genuine curiosity…
Well, sure, these are daunting figures for any applicant. The hypothetical student I described would of course be at the low end of the [easily measurable] stats in the Yale applicant pool. I guess my larger question was more or less unknowable. It asks whether Yale admissions might even be capable of saying; “My god, this kid can WRITE!” or “Talk about imagination!” In short, could these sorts of unquantifiable traits compensate for “mediocre” stats (well, mediocre in this stratosphere only)? Is there a place for a high-achieving-but-not-completely-driven dreamer at Yale?
It goes without saying that there’s no guarantee the AO would respond so favorably to the applicant’s essays and recs. And, somewhat sadly, it sounds like the student in question would be much better off to focus on schools with a demonstrated willingness to place a higher value on subjective characteristics.
It asks if any of us knows what a Yale AO would think, and the answer is “no.” Would an extremely well-written passionate essay help? IMO, yes. Will it be the determining factor? IMO, no. There are a million pieces to the puzzle, and none of us can predict how changing one parameter will impact the admissions decision.
But the answer to general question of “Can a non-hooked applicant without 4.0/36/1600 get into Yale?” is yes, because it happens every year. Can the hypothetical applicant described above get in? Who knows?
I’m saying, as long as you keep in mind the overall admission rate, a kid with a profile like that has a chance, anywhere. Why? The killer essays (which better be something special if you 're intended major is declared as writing/lit) and LOR.
I truly believe they do adopt a holistic approach to admissions. If it’s a rigours prep school you would imagine they offer more than five AP courses but, depending on the five taken, I wonder if there is a point where the value of APs taken levels off, and maybe five is in that ballpark?
Heavy involvement in theatre and dance suggests a spike that, to me, looks better than the usual founder and President of a dozen clubs at school.
If that were my kid’s profile and they loved Yale I’d say, ‘Go for it. Just remember what you learned about percentages and statistics.’
If the kid’s writing is truly extraordinary he might get it. (But I don’t think Yale cares so much about how badly the applicant wants to get in, so writing about love for the school is not going to get you in - need to write something else extraordinary)
For unhooked kids, these top schools are usually looking to fatten up their stats for reporting. But a 3.85 from a rigorous prep school means the kid can do the work at Yale so that box gets checked. I’m not saying the odds are good, but not but they are not out of the question
The way you frame that, they wouldn’t. However, my knowledge of recent and current Yale students and applicants, admittedly a smallish sample size, features kids off the charts on achievement, ambition, work ethic and academic “promise,” perhaps, but with little demonstrated imagination or interest in doing highly original work.
Also, the whole “better stats” argument is peculiar, isn’t it? Does anyone really believe that a 34 ACT (99th percentile) is appreciably different from a 32 (97th percentile) as an indicator of intellectual ability, or that 7 APs says something that 5 does not? ALL of these comparisons involve students far beyond any threshold indicating the likelihood of college success. But it does confirm that the overwhelming majority of admissions decisions either ignore or undervalue the human (subjective) element. Hardly a news flash, but somewhat disappointing.
Thanks for these insights and informed responses, by the way. The picture is still somewhat cloudy on the advisability of pursuing admission to Yale in this case, but I appreciate the input.
I see what you are saying, but I bet there are a whole lot of high stat kids that are original thinkers. It’s not that they are deciding between a 34 drone and a 32 kid with imgagination, its that they likely have enough 34+ kids with curiosity and imagination to fill the entire place 3x over
And I don’t know if I think a 34 taken 3 times to achieve a superscore of 34 is necessarily better than a 32. But a first time single sitting 34, impresses me more than a 32.
Now we’re getting to the heart of the matter. I think most admissions people – most PEOPLE – are like you in terms of what is immediately impressive. I see no meaningful difference between those two scores, or possibly even between 30 and 36. They’re all “elite” scores. The more important distinctions are hidden a little deeper and are a lot harder to slap a number on. Which is one reason most schools don’t have the time, or maybe the interest, in uncovering them.
Maybe the best analogy is sports, where two athletes might be pretty close on paper (stats), but the lower-ranked one could possess those intangibles that make them a superior choice. Assuming that’s what the coach or school valued.
I once wrote a letter to apply for a job. They were looking for an attorney but of all the letters they got ( about 200) the hiring manager loved what I had written. ( It was a classical reference to moving things). I got an interview ( the only person they interviewed who did not fit the mold of what they had decided was important), but I did not get the job.
My point is, you may write the best essay ever, but it is unlikely they will select you. They literally have thousands of people who do fit the mold ( and I’m sure a few of those have excellent essays too).
I think it’s a good idea not to waste time on it. If you fit into the bottom 25% and want to do it, then by all means go ahead. But don’t you want to spend time on other schools? Have you considered going elsewhere and then applying as a transfer?
If Yale often took the ACT 32 kid who wrote great essays and in some other way stood out, then the average would be closer to 32. Since they take a few 32s, those students are somehow exceptional. Maybe it WAS the writing, or the volunteer work, or the Olympic gold medal. If you want to be the exception, you have to be exceptional.
What are we debating here? If you don’t understand what Yale looks for, what they say and show, this is hypothetical to a ‘pie in the sky’ degree. How do you know what ECs would be “good,” much less great?
If you did “nothing to fatten up that resume,” what shows them you’re likely to explore a nice range of ECs in college? How does that "show “enormous promise and genuine curiosity?” It’s a mantra among some on CC to repeat, “Just be yourself.” But Yale is looking for a level of activation and depth and breadth, to show openness to new experiences. (And that doesn’t mean any old club.)
If you don’t know what matters, how do you write a “killer” essay? This is about admission, not a writing contest. Not about imagination, per se. “Passion” is no “it” factor. Other demonstrated qualities matter.
So go understand holistic, the fierce competition, and the cherry picking among top academic performers who hit the mark in all ways. Look at what Yale really wants. Without that, I don’t see how the app/supp can be effective.
“Potential” is trumped by results, academic and other. Show, not just tell.