<p>Alright, I don't want to be mean, but recently I'm seeing a lot of chances posts made by Wharton-aspiring users that have really low test scores and grades. I think a question you need to all ask yourself is: Even if I got admitted to Penn and matriculated, would I be able to handle the workload there?? Doing relatively well at a smaller, Tier 2/3 college looks much better than failing out of Penn Wharton or graduating at the bottom of your class. I'm not trying to discourage anyone here but applicants with SAT I scores <2,000 and unweighted GPA's <3.5 should really rethink their goals for higher education and their plans for college. You're only doing yourself injustice if you're denying a school that will provide you an academic curriculum and lifestyle that will help your progress and mature accordingly, in favor of a college whose rigorous standards far exceed your academic potential just because of presige.</p>
<p>Note that I'm not implying that test scores and GPA correlate heavily with academic ability but I really think it comes down to effort. If you've never tried hard academically in HS and nover bothered to prepare for standardized tests, yet you have amazing business EC's that could probably get you into Wharton anyway, go ahead and apply as long as you compromise with yourself that you'll be mroe focused in college. On the other hand, if you're ACTUALLY trying to work hard in school and studying for your SAT/ACTs furiously and you still seem to perform mediocrely, Penn may not be the college for you. Keep in mind, a lot of business majors from smaller colleges have gone on to be more successful than Wharton grads and own their own Fortune-500 companies now.</p>
<p>Please be smart and responsible about your education i.e. my advice.:)</p>
<p>dictator, 80% of the people who apply to Penn can handle the courseload.</p>
<p>PS: Discouraging people from applying is really stupid. If they really want to go, they have the right to apply. How would you feel if someone said you had no chance at their dream school? Just handle the competiton and good luck. Some of those low GPA and low SATs may have abilities you can only dream of like charisma, creativity, eloquence and above all COMPASSION.</p>
<p>First of all SAT's don't mean crap in my opinion. My friend is number 3 or 4 and has taken lots of AP's. He got a 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam, which is one of the hardest AP exams, yet he "only" has a 1900 SAT score.</p>
<p>Second, a university admits only:
1) Students who can handle the courseload
2) Students who will add diversity/athletics/leadership to the school and still be able to manage the courseload</p>
<p>So while you are talking about not being able to handle the courseload, you are basing it off the fact that the SAT predicts college success. This a false claim...many factors come into view when people enter college. The SAT was designed to assess the national students' average scores, true, but it is also based on the concept of MONEY.</p>
<p>Why do you think that when you sign up for the SAT, they offer to sell you their SAT review book? Its not because they want us to get better scores. Its so they can make money. If people got great scores the first time, they wouldn't take the SAT again...so they would lose money.</p>
<p>This is the same way the GRE is, my sister's professor told her that the GRE is only 3% effective at measueiing succes at graduate school.</p>
<p>GPA is totally different, as 3.5 GPA at one school is hard to achieve, while at another 4.5 maybe easy to achieve.</p>
<p>Yeah that is really condescending. Who are you to tell people that they can't handle Penn? Let the admissions office do the job of weeding out unqualified applicants.
Remember, evil_dictator: half the people at Penn, Harvard, MIT, etc. are in the bottom half of their class. Does it mean they're doomed to fail at life? NO.</p>
<p>You have to think about WHY people have 3.5 GPAs. Is it because they're lazy retards? Who knows! We have no idea what their circumstances are and for all we know, that 3.5 could be a big achievement for that person. And what is with the arbitrary SAT>2000 standard? I know someone who does terribly on standardized tests but who works really hard and is really quick and smart in class--if you saw him you would assume he had super-high test scores when in reality his SATs suck. I realize that for a lot of people, the low SAT score really is an indicator of relatively "low" intelligence but you never know when the correlation is wrong. I'd refrain from judging people just based on test scores and grades.</p>
<p>ns347 and MallomarCookie nice posts. You summed up what I wanted to say but first I wanted to know if evil_dictator was in college or if he was applying. I felt like he had an agenda when he made that post.</p>
<p>LOL I don't have an agenda with my post at all, and besides, it's not like dissuading maybe at max 5 people on this thread from applying to Penn will really affect my chances of getting in either way theworld8905. ALright, here are my responses to your posts...</p>
Yeah, so I'm advising the other 20% who can't handle the Penn courseload to look for smaller LAC's or Tier 2/3 schools that can meet their educational needs better and be the right fit for them.</p>
I'm not discouraging anyone from applying but rather, I am stating that if indeed even if they are accepted, they should still consider all their college options. If these students do have all the amazing qualities you're referring to, then they should be able to succeed even in other colleges, with the added advantage that a smaller school will offer them more individualized attention and perhaps even less academic rigor that will help them develop accordingly at their own pace. If someone said I had no chance at my dream school, I would strongly consider my opinion. Besides, a high schooler's perception of a <em>DREAM</em> school if often tied in with prestige and US News Rankings rather than the best fit that wil helpl meet their academic and social needs. Gee, CHARISMA, ELOQUENCE, AND COMPASSION??? I would be darned if I possessed those valuable abilities lol...but they would be wasted on a Penn dropout.</p>
I fail to see any point in my original post that was in any shape or manner condescending rather than helpful but I'm glad that you felt like you contributed something to this thread anyway by posting.</p>
Maybe your school is just easy and your friend knows how to do Calculus?? You confuse correlation with causation as nothing in this statement indicates that your friend would perform well on the SAT, particualrly the critical reading and writing sections.</p>
<p>So while you are talking about not being able to handle the courseload, you are basing it off the fact that the SAT predicts college success. This a false claim...many factors come into view when people enter college. The SAT was designed to assess the national students' average scores, true, but it is also based on the concept of MONEY.
<p>Why do you think that when you sign up for the SAT, they offer to sell you their SAT review book? Its not because they want us to get better scores. Its so they can make money. If people got great scores the first time, they wouldn't take the SAT again...so they would lose money.
My post is not about whether Penn considers a student the right match for the university but rather whether a student feels Penn is a right match for him/her. Only you know yourself well enough to say if you would benefit more from a Penn/Ivy League setting or perhaps a smaller/liberal arts/vocational setting. OMG THE EVIL COLLEGEBOARD IS TRYING TO STEAL OUR MONEY!!!! Please, the SAT measures basic math/reading/writing skills that can easily be improved upon by any student. I know friends who went from a 1800 to a 2200 on the SAT just by studying and improving on their weaknesses. If you're not willing to study for the most important test in HS, why should anyone have the confidence that you will prepare yourself for regular tests once at Penn. They may not be the best indicator of success but the SAT's are indeed reliable to a large extent.</p>
<p>This is the same way the GRE is, my sister's professor told her that the GRE is only 3% effective at measueiing succes at graduate school.</p>
<p>GPA is totally different, as 3.5 GPA at one school is hard to achieve, while at another 4.5 maybe easy to achieve.
Umm, Collegeboard is a non-profit organization and arguably buting an SAT review book should increase your score. It's not Collegeboard's fault if students need to retake the SAT's multiple times to improve their scores. This responsibility lies within the student. I don't think your sister's hearsay from one professor in one college is going to dispute years of credible research performed my multiple experts that the SAT/ACT are accurate tests that predict college success.</p>
<p>OK, I concede my original point that an applciant needs a 3.5 GPA in HS to succeed at Penn since some high schools are more rigorous than others. I stand corrected but one easily knows how good his/her grades are in context and whether this translates to success in college.</p>
OK, Mallomar of Jimbob(whatever you want to call yourself), I will let the admissions office weed out unqualified applicants. In fact, our discussion is merelty semantics since 95% of the applicants with low test scores and grades like I indicated earlier will undoubtebly be outrightly rejected from Penn. As far as the other 5% who may have "slipped through the cracks", I am just recommending that they consider other colleges that may beb etter suited to and happier at.</p>
Remember, evil_dictator: half the people at Penn, Harvard, MIT, etc. are in the bottom half of their class. Does it mean they're doomed to fail at life? NO.
This is true but if you know that you'll be in the bottom ranks of an Ivy League college beforehand, tehn you should seriosuly consider other colleges. You're basically saying that it's better to be in the bottom half of Harvard/MIT/Penn than to be the top of your fclass at an LAC or Tier 2/3 college and that is absolutely incorrect. The latter candidates will be offered better grad school placement and future employment opportunities.</p>
Err, I don't think test scores/grades display all of anyone's repetoire, but they do a pretty good job of assessing academic ability and preparedness for college for sure. Sure, extenuating circumstances do exist, but the excuse that "I'm bad at standardized tests!!" doesn't really count as one and won't fly later in life. You can take the SAT as many time as you want and you have all the resources to succeed right in your local bookstore so as I said before, it's only a matter of effort and willpower. 'Working really hard" and being "smart in class" are all admirable characteristics but like you mentioned before with test scores/grades, I'm not going to judge someone's intellect on hard work and "smartness in class" either.</p>
<p>College Confidential downplays the importance of test scores and grades way too much. The attitudes have shifted from "grades/test scores mean everything!"-->"grades/test scores aren't the only factor considered!"-->"grades/test scores don't matter at all as long as I have personality!". Just be informed folks.</p>
<p>True, I agree that test scores and GPA are extremely important and are becoming somewhat underrated. But I still disagree with you on your point that it's worse to be in the bottom half of the Penn class than the top half of a Tier 2 school class. That is a very personal, normative judgement. You are entitled to that opinion, but there's no right answer. (and yes I am Mallomar)</p>
<p>That's a bunch of crap. Students who are admitted at any college are admitted because they are thought to be able to handle the courseload. And who are you to give such advice anyway? Are you trying to scare competition or something?</p>
<p>evil<em>asian</em>dictator : what are your stats. It seems that you might have high stats, and that has made you a little too overconfident. A lot of schools are harder than others. It is not fair to compare any applicants from different schools, because a 3.5 in my school, is literally like a 3.8-4.0+ in another school in new york city. Colleges know that and they take that into consideration.</p>
<p>I think the Penn's holistic approach to admissions will be a wake up call for some. I'm really glad Penn isn't a 1600 club but a really unique place. Gl guys!</p>
<p>Also, to evil<em>asian</em>dictator, high school teaches you BASIC (elementry) skills to learn, but many people have INNATE abilities, apptitudes and interests that cannot be reflected by GPA and SAT because they are cummulative. Why do you think half of the vals applying to Penn get rejected? While some students are well-rounded, others are well-lopsided and specialize in one field.</p>
<p>It's called a major, evil_dictator. You pursue what you love and specialize in that field. That's why high school students who weren't the best in their class far surpass their val counterparts because they do what they like.</p>
<p>Go to college before you make generalizations.</p>
<p>^^Wait dear, isn't that what high school is all about??;) I thought that surviving college was mostly about being a good test taker since homework is usually not collected and "free points" aren't usually awarded easily like in high school.</p>
<p>Everyone seems to be missing my point here. If you've slacked off all during high school but you are actually an intelligent kid, then by all means go to Penn if you get accepted and decide to become resolute about working hard in college. However, if you're actually TRYING YOUR BEST in high school and are receiving subpar GRADES AND SCORES even after pulling all-nighters and putting in a great deal of effort, then you may be better off considering a different academic environment where you may be able to better flourish even if you do get into Penn due to some AMAZING extracurricular that you have.</p>
<p>Also, grades and test scores are reliable academic indicators to some level despite what you all might believe. Just because you all know an anecdote about one individual who struggled during high school but then triumphed during his/hr college years, that doesn't mean this is a universal theme or a general occurrence. Statistical evidence shows that one's academic performance remains uniform GENERALLY from elementary school up to college.</p>
I thought that surviving college was mostly about being a good test taker
<p>I achieved an A on almost every single political science and econ exam I took as an undergrad. I did only "well enough" on the GRE. The types of exams you take for courses and the SAT/GRE are quite different.
Of course grades and scores are better than nothing, but the correlation between SAT scores and overall college success are still far lower than we might expect (I think something like .60). </p>
<p>And this isn't just a few "anecdotes." This is in large part due to the fact that some of us have gone through college and can recognize the very different challenges that one is likely to face.</p>
However, if you're actually TRYING YOUR BEST in high school and are receiving subpar GRADES AND SCORES even after pulling all-nighters and putting in a great deal of effort, then you may be better off considering a different academic environment where you may be able to better flourish even if you do get into Penn due to some AMAZING extracurricular that you have.
<p>Keep in mind that Penn isn't just Wharton. Penn has many different areas of study where almost anyone can flourish. Don't like math? Major in a liberal art. Don't like reading/writing? Major in a science. College isn't high school, where one has to achieve in everything. College is where you can study what you're best at.</p>
<p>Oh, and yes, I realize that GEs exist. But if even the most hardened mathophobes can struggle through calc at the schools my friends and I went to, anyone can.</p>
<p>But yes, your point is fair. But then again, you didn't really say that well in the first post, so don't be surprised that people jumped down your throat.</p>
<p>i think dictator has a good point. i was just talking to my freshman friend in penn and she was already complaining about the amount of work they got. 168 problems in 4 days, and 2 books w/ written responses in one week, and other insane hw. dont know about you guys, but i think that's a pretty tough courseload.</p>
<p>btw, i don't see anything condescending about the OP. :)</p>