WSJ opinion - smoking gun Covid was synthesized in Wuhan lab

Allow me to edit this so that it takes your side, but is actually correct:

You have not demonstrated anything about relative likelihood, much less that your preferred scenario is the most likely, and even less that your preferred scenario has a significantly(?—at least a medium or large difference, I guess) greater likelihood than any other.

In order to do that, you have to engage with the (several) counterarguments that have been given in this thread, which you have in general not done except for raising arguments of repeated assertion.

Essentially, you seem to have decided that any evidence for your preferred conclusion is entirely reliable (despite errors of fact in some of them being pointed out; see the furin cleavage discussion), and that any counterevidence is wrong and can therefore be simply dismissed. This is, as I hope you can see, not something that anyone else is going to find compelling, and for good reason.

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@ColdWombat , wouldn’t you say at least that there’s some circumstantial evidence, firstly, in the close proximity of the Wuhan lab to the place of origin, and, secondly, in the relative rareness of these naturally-occuring furin sightings? Neither is proof, of course.

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I’ll consider evidence presented in peer-reviewed primary research from journals that are indexed by pubmed. And by consider, I mean consider. But I’m not a virologist, so I look to virologists for opinions on this issue anyway.

Also, I don’t know what qualifies as “relative rareness” about mutations for active sites in viruses (and neither do you), but I present these quotes about evolution of furin cleavage sites in coronoviruses from the above linked papers, without comment:

“we have examined the global epidemiology and evolutionary history of SARS-CoV-2 and 248 other CoVs with 86 diversified furin cleavage sites that have been detected in 24 animal hosts in 28 countries since 1954. Besides MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2, two of five other CoVs known to infect humans (HCoV-OC43 and HCoV-HKU1) also have furin cleavage sites. In addition, human enteric coronavirus (HECV-4408) has a furin cleavage site and has been detected in humans (first in Germany in 1988), probably via spillover events from bovine sources.”

“Here we analyzed the phylogenetic relationships of coronavirus spike proteins and mapped furin recognition motif on the tree. Furin cleavage sites occurred independently for multiple times in the evolution of the coronavirus family, supporting the natural occurring hypothesis of SARS-CoV-2.”

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Pareidolia is a very, very real thing.

Human beings are hardwired to recognize patterns. And we’re good at it. Like, really good at it.

The problem is that that means that we have a tendency to see patterns not just where they’re meaningful, but also where they’re actually noise.

So yes, there’s circumstantial evidence, but circumstantial evidence is not evidence—it is pareidolia until demonstrated otherwise.

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In that case, the first group to be infected would have been lab workers and their families, not the people in the market.

Make no mistake, that lab was an outbreak waiting to happen, but then again, so was the wet market. Had we not had the pandemic, we may have seen something happening in the lab.

However, the issue I have is that the arguments for a lab leak are all full of unsupported logical leaps, logical fallacies. They also are making claims that they know are false.

This is a conspiracy theory, because the “conclusion” was determined before any “evidence” was collected. Wade started with the belief that the virus was engineered in the Wuhan lab, and he then proceeded to build his argument backwards to create a reasonable just-so story that supported his claim.

There are two separate and very different claims that Wade is making.

First: the virus was engineered
Second: it escaped from the lab.

The first has been repeatedly debunked, from its very first iteration, and yet Wade once again resurrects it. That fact that he, and other conspiracy theorists keep on changing what they consider to be “the smoking gun” is pretty clear proof that they have absolutely no intention of finding out what happened. They have already decided that the virus was engineered, and therefore nothing else will be considered. If their claims of AIDS virus pieces on the spike have been disproven, they’ll claim that the furin cleavage is not found elsewhere. Now that it has been found elsewhere, they will try to “find” other “proof”.

Again, the fact that the “proof” keeps on changing, but the claim doesn’t, tells me that they’re not engaged in science, but in conspiracy theory.

The second is not an entirely wild assumption, since there very well could have been a sample of SARS-CoV-2 taken from somewhere else and lack of safety protocols resulted in a worker being exposed.

However, that would require that the first outbreak start with the lab. A person who is infected first transmits it to their family, friends, and coworkers, and the outbreak didn’t start with people around the lab. Even if that person also spread it in the market, the first people infected would have been connected to the lab. It didn’t have to actually start in the wet market. The first person who transmitted to another person could have been one of the people who supplied the wet market who raised or trapped animals or even just transported them. It could even have been a customer who was infected by one of the animals they bought. The pattern of spread indicates that the first patient or patients were connected to the wet market, which indicates transmission from animals.

One thing, though, that we can agree on is that the Chinese governments messed up in their responses and they have been doing their best to make it impossible to determine the origin of the pandemic. They got rid of the wet market and are denying facts, such as the presence of racoon dogs (photographed in 2015).

They also have successfully deflected attention from their mishandeling of the pandemic to the source of the virus, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were engaged in keeping the “engineered virus” conspiracy theory alive. That way everybody is wasting their time on that, rather than on errors, mishandling, and bad decisions that people actually made.

As an aside - there are an estimated 320,000 varieties of viruses that infect mammals, and we barely know one percent of them. So when Wade goes blathering on about how SARS-CoV-2 must be engineered because it doesn’t look, to him, like any virus that are known, that is sort of meaningless, since we only know a tiny fraction of all the viruses that are out there.

It’s as though he were claiming that the Earth must have been engineered, because it is unlike any of the other planets and exoplanets that we have found.

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Well, I’m just a poor old lawyer, but circumstantial evidence is evidence and not a reason to act as if there’s nothing to see here. Circumstantiality properly goes to weight. Enough of it permits inferences, tentative ones, to be drawn, weighed against evidence to the contrary. A fancy name like Pareidolia doesn’t alter these general propositions, nor should it deter us from being very curious about why a thing as unusual as this disease just happened to break out near a lab doing this very sort of research. Can this be explained away by a paucity of furin occurrences in nature? Or is that paucity itself evidence that something other than nature was operating here?

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But where’s your evidence for a “paucity of furin occurences”. What does that even mean? Furin is an endogenous mammalian protein.

If you’re referring instead to furin cleavage sites in coronaviruses, I presented evidence to you that they are not unheard of. I cannot assess whether or not they’re “common”, but the fact that they’ve been found in covid and in 2 of the 5 other CoVs that infect humans would be part of an expert making that judgement. You cannot say there’s a paucity in nature because you don’t know what those rates even are.

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So let’s go to yet another expert: Gary Whittaker from Cornell who has published something like 50 articles on SARS in the last couple decades.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(23)00144-1/fulltext

As for me, I’m going to bow out of discussing furin cleavage. CC doesn’t permit debate, and I wouldn’t be interested in debating furin with people who don’t even know what it is anyway.

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I keep on thinking of this book reading this thread:

https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge-dp-0197763820/dp/0197763820/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

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Well, yes, @ColdWombat , I left out “cleavages,” but I think you knew what I meant and kindly supplied the omission. Point to you. As to the matter of their paucity, I draw that conclusion from the papers referenced here. They support the proposition that such cleavages are not non-eixlstent in nature, as Wade contended, but they also say that there are not many of them and they’re a fairly recent discovery.

@MWolf , you recite a classic argument for the existence of God. Points for wit, but that’s taking the discussion above my pay grade. I assert only that the creature that invented the polio vaccine, the light bulb, the great works of the imagination, and everything that we go to school to study, must at least be considered as capable of manipulating a lowly virus. That operation is not different in kind from any of these or a thousand others that our ingenious species has gotten up to.

@beebee3 , the experts I have known, the ones truly deserving the name, were good at explaining things in their own words, not merely citing authorites. Socrates didn’t depart in a huff covered by an insult when a discussion threatened to begin. If our age is witnessing the decline of confidence in expertise, it may be for that reason.

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Of course people can manipulate viruses, and they have. However, how does that prove, or even support, the claim that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered?

This seems like the following logic:

People can manipulate viruses.

AND

SARS-CoV-2 is a virus.

Therefore, SARS-CoV-2 was manipulated.

As a lawyer, you should see the logical fallacy here.

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@dfbdfb , why don’t you explain why I’ve lost on furin cleavage? People keep making assertions, but no one deigns to elucidate. And I’ve never said more than that this phenomenon leaves open the possibility of a human explanation, not that it proves it.

@MWolf is arguing by analogy when he says that the thesis that the existence of a unique virus implies an engineer is like the thesis that the uniqueness of the earth itself implies a maker. He was referencing there the good old argument from design for the existence of God. You could look it up. But @MWolf is not himself God: his analogical argument is susceptible like all others to critique on the basis of the inexactness of the analogy. I was saying in a light tone that we have a lot more evidence of what man can do in the world than of what God has ever done. Feeble, I know, but it was an attempt at wit.

@MWolf , once again I say that I’m not claiming that the virus was engineered nor that the evidence for this is other than suggestive. I only want to give it its proper weight. You seem to want to deny there is any evidence at all. Let me turn the tables. You accept that it would be possible in principle to manipulate the virus. If that is so, it is at least a potential explanation of how covid was released into the world. Why do you refuse even to consider that as a possibility?

I like it that my lawyerly expertise is being questioned. I see that as proof that not everyone on this board is a slave to expertise. But let me put it this way: There’s enough evidence to take this matter to trial. Whether there’s enough to convict remains to be seen. Most on this board want to acquit without trial.

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Your lawyerly experience was not being questioned. Let’s start with that, because that was not done. If you mean the statement that I started with “And if you’re a lawyer,…”, that isn’t casting doubt on you being a lawyer, that’s starting from a given and creating an if…then statement from the given. Why you took that as questioning your expertise is puzzling.

I stated that you have lost on furin cleavage because several others have posted a number of different peer-reviewed studies to counter the claims you appear to base (that part of) your skepticism on. If you have additional evidence, please post it.

And not all arguments by analogy are the same. It totally isn’t cool to conflate dissimilar items just because they share a few features.

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I don’t agree. I think most on this board are taking issue with Wade’s theory being presented as fact, rather than the opinion that it is. Wade would have had a more compelling argument if he had avoided hyperbole (e.g., unleashing the virus) and hadn’t politicized his theory.

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Well, @Lindagaf ,Wade took that snarky shot at liberals, but he’s been on the receiving end of some shots as well, and isn’t it true in your observation that conservatives tend toward the Lab hypothesis (either leak or engineered) and liberals toward the Wet Market hypothesis? I have my theories of why this is so, but if it IS so, it would be surprising if those attitudes haven’t influenced the way the two hypotheses have been received, both in general and on this board.

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Sounds like a great post for the PF! :wink:

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Yes, lets move the politics of this article to the PF please. Further political comments will be deleted.

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