WUSTL ED vs. Columbia/Brown ED

College Search & Lists
1

Hi guys! I have done thorough research into all three of these schools and I am certain they are my top 3. I want to major in biology, preferably with a more environmental focus. I think all three schools have very strong programs, and lots of great amenities, such as being in/near big cities, being research institutions, having a small undergrad size with most students living on campus, great food and things to do nearby, etc. However, I am having trouble deciding where to apply ED. My counselor advised me to apply WUSTL ED because I would be very likely to get in, but would I be giving up on the Ivies? I would be very happy at WUSTL, but I would like to hear your advice on whether or not I should even take a shot at the Ivies. I believe Columbia is my overall first choice, but I also fear that if I don’t get accepted ED that I will have a hard time getting into WUSTL or Brown RD and will have lost out on all of my top 3.

State: Arizona
Gender: Female
Race: White
Income Bracket: Well-off (will not qualify for financial aid)

Stats:
GPA: UW 3.95/4.0, W 4.75/5.0
ACT: 34 (M 31, E 35, R 36, S 35)
SAT: 1500 (M 740, 760 V)
Rank: 16/760 (Top 2%)
SAT IIs: Not received scores back yet, but planning to take Bio E, Chem, Math II, and Lit (advice on these is welcome too)
AP Scores: Human Geo (5), World History (5), Taken in 2018 (no scores yet, but felt like I did great): Calc BC, Eng Lang, APUSH, and Env Sci.

Senior Course Load: AP US Gov, AP Spanish, AP Bio, AP Chem, H. Calc III, Adv. English Comp, Honors Chamber Orchestra

ECs:

  • Orchestra (Cello) for 6 years, member of Chamber Orchestra that performed at Midwest Clinic (International and very selective conference), council president, great relationship with teacher (will probably write me a rec), participated in regional orchestra and received a perfect score on my audition last year, also in local youth symphony and have been for past 5 years (includes playing for thousands of elementary school kids and performing side by side with local professional symphony)
  • Music Club (co-president) performs in community for senior citizens, kids at libraries, and at hospitals. This is one of my favorite clubs and I really enjoy it.
  • Volunteering Clubs: NHS, Key Club, Peer Tutoring, and Rho Kappa (Nat’l Soc Studies Honors Society)
  • Volunteer at the Desert Botanical Garden for over a year (currently running the children’s summer camp and will receive about 100+ volunteer hours for that this summer), taking a certificate class here this summer in Desert Ecology and Plant Biology, participate in a behind-the-scenes type teen program during the year (have learned a lot about how a botanical garden works)
  • Founded an Environmental Action Society in my community to inspire other teens to get involved in the environmental movement. Currently working on organizing a group to march on the Phoenix capitol during the People’s Climate March in September and getting a recycling program implemented in my school district. Also intend to raise money for environmental charities
  • Maintained a very steady petsitting business for 8 years, several regular clients and a solid income

Most likely will submit a music supplement with my application
Hoping to demonstrate an interest in music and biology/environmental science

Summer Activities:
Post-9th: Attended summer camp in North Carolina for 5 weeks, definitely fostered my love of nature
Post-10th: Lots of volunteering at an org. that provides services to homebound senior citizens, attended a two week music program at my state flagship, attended two week Environmental Leadership Lab at Brown University
Post-11th: 100+ hours of volunteering at Botanical Garden and at a wildlife rehab center where I take care of orphaned birds for 8 hrs/weekend, traveling with family, and attending a two week program in Costa Rica to study nesting habits of female sea turtles and practice Spanish skills (very excited for this trip)

Essays: I am a very strong writer and I am confident that these will turn out well
Recs: I have about 3-4 teachers I am confident in asking for recs, and I expect they will demonstrate my ability to work hard and be an attentive and tenacious student. A few of these teachers also know about my biology passion and would be really excited to see me attend a top university.
Counselor Rec: My public school is huge but she knows me by name and seems to enjoy talking to me. As far as I know, she is going for a “still waters that run deep” approach for my rec as I am a quiet student but I love learning and am passionate about my intended major.

Thanks for reading! Please let me know if I should try to apply to Columbia ED or just be safe and go for WUSTL, which I also really like.

2

The stats are about right for all 3 schools. Also 3 SAT subject tests are fine.

My understanding is that WashU is considering ED2 next year, so theoretically you could ED Columbia and ED2 to WashU with Brown as your RD.

A slight concern is that you are declaring as a Biology major, but doubling up on AP Biology and AP Chemistry as a senior. Most potential Biology majors have already taken AP Biology junior year. Perhaps substitute Physics for Chemistry if you don’t have a background in the subject.

If that is your final schedule, it looks to be extremely brutal. I would take out Calc 3/Multivariable and maybe take Statistics instead.

Have you visited either WashU or Columbia yet? WashU likes demonstrated interest (visits, interviews).

3

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your advice. May I ask where you heard/read about WashU’s consideration of ED II? If that is true that’d be great news. As far as AP Chem and Bio, I know many students who have doubled up and say it is manageable. AP Gov is only one semester and will be second sem, so I’ll only have to worry about 3 APs at first. I personally would like to take Chem because I think it’s useful background for a bio major, and I have already taken the honors course at my school. Calc III is also considered to be quite manageable at my school and is much easier than AP Calc BC. I also do have plans to visit both WashU and Columbia before apps are due.

4

Have you considered ED to Barnard? That strikes me as your best-of-all-worlds option - an even more favorable admissions forecast than WashU, for access too all the programs and opportunities of Columbia. (Plus some very attractive attributes of Barnard itself.)

Advantage of WashU is that merit aid is possible, which isn’t going to happen at Columbia/Barnard.
Very different environments; assuming you wouldn’t ED anywhere without visiting first.

5

OP, I’ll need to check about ED 2 for WashU. I heard about it in a parent’s group.

Honors Chemistry should be suffice if you’re considering a Biology major for WashU as the school doesn’t give credit for a 5 for the regular GenChem 1/2 sequence. I would double up on Biology/Physics, but that’s my opinion.

Agree about Calc 3 being easier/more straightforward. Although Statistics might be more useful for a Biology major not considering a pre-med.

Since you state that you aren’t going to quality for financial aid, your chances for acceptance at WashU will be higher, especially for ED.

The visits will definitely make things clearer for your decision. St. Louis and New York are definitely different environments. WashU has more of a suburban feel since most of it is actually located in Clayton (St. Louis suburb) although downtown St. Louis is only about 15 minutes away. If graduate school is in your future, Brown is easier to get a higher GPA than Columbia/WashU.

6

Congratulations on your hard work and success!

You seem to want to go to WUSTL. Then apply ED and hope it works out. Don’t worry that it’s not “Ivy League.” That’s just a historic designation that says nothing about how good of a choice they would be for YOU. WUSTL is a great school. It has great students and faculty and staff. It’s beautiful, and there are things to do around campus and around St. Louis. The fact that it is not designated “Ivy League,” which was not even a possibility at the time this designation emerged, seems of very little relevance to the question, Where is the best place for you to study biology? So go for WUSTL if you love it.

As an FYI, WUSTL places great emphasis on stats (you’re good there) and interest so visit and interview if you can.

Good luck!

7

Why are you worried about “giving up on the Ivies”? Wash U is a terrific school with a good quality of life, and it’s at least as strong as Brown and Columbia for environmental science and organismal biology. I’d argue it’s stronger, in fact, particularly for plant science. Additionally, you have resources like the St. Louis Zoo right next to campus, and the massive Missouri Botanical Garden isn’t too far away either.

I recommend giving some thought to your safeties and matches. Arizona and ASU are obviously great for biology and environmental science, especially if you get into Barrett at ASU. You have many good options through the Western Undergraduate Exchange as well; Arizona residents pay no more than 150% of in-state tuition at participating public universities.

http://wue.wiche.edu/search_results.jsp?searchType=all

There are many excellent options for environmental biology beyond the elite universities, like Connecticut College, Rhodes in Memphis, Macalester in SP/Minneapolis, or some of the Pacific Northwest LACs (e.g. Lewis & Clark and Whitman), to name only a few examples. I recommend applying Early Action to some match schools if case ED doesn’t work out for you. It’s good to have at least one acceptance in hand by December!

8

This is a tough decision that everyone in your shoes has to make, a qualified but not a sure bet at any of these schools. You have to decide which road to take, maximum chance at one of the 3, which is probably WUSTL, or go for Columbia or Brown which have lower acceptance chances even with ED. You need to do a little research here on what your chances are at each. Look at past threads on ED acceptances from last year for some idea on who got accepted. Also decide if WUSTL offers a significantly better chance ED and if WUSTL is close enough to the other two that it won’t make that much of a difference to you. Personally for top schools and the ever increasing competition for admittance I would go with one of the schools on your list that gives you the best chance at being admitted. BTW applying ED to that school still doesn’t mean you will be accepted.

9

We just arrived home at a visit to WashU, and during the information session, the admissions rep stated that they are starting ED2 next year. She said that they take about 40% of their class from early decision, so I’m guessing that with the beginning of ED2, this will increase. Have you visited the campus? It is absolutely beautiful, and totally different from Columbia. I dragged my son there unwillingly (“Where are we going? St. Louis? Why?”), and he was blown away. It’s now one of his top choices. Have you visited Columbia? It’s not for everyone. My D loved the school when we visited, but not the very noisy urban environment.

10

@patatty I dragged my son as well, and he was also blown away. WashU moved straight to the top of the list. He was accepted ED for the fall of 2018!

11

@court16 - The three schools you prefer have quite different academic/social cultures from each other, so perhaps visiting each will help you decide where you’d feel most at home? WUSTL and Columbia both have intensely competitive STEM students, and your math ACT and SAT scores show that you might struggle in Physics and Chem classes at all three schools (which I know quite well). Your cello background will probably be more of an admissions advantage at WUSTL and Brown, since the student musicians who get accepted to Columbia are exceptionally accomplished. Finally, Columbia is at the opposite end of the spectrum from WUSTL when it comes to academic and student support services. I agree with @aquapt that your chances of admission to Barnard are much greater than they are at Columbia, and Barnard is a much nicer place to be a student. As long as you have a few matches and safeties on your list as well as these schools, you will be fine. Best of luck.

12

@court16. ^only on CC would a 740 in math lead to the theory that you might struggle in Physics or Chem at the college level. As you have taken Calc BC as a junior and feel that you did well on the AP exam, I would not worry too much about your ability to tackle STEM classes in college. Also, if you look at the Wash U threads, many speak to the collaborative spirit among STEM undergrads in both engineering and pre-med.

I do agree that applying ED to a school that you have never visited, preferably when classes are in session, is not a great idea.

I have visited all three campuses and I agree with many comments upthread about WashU’s virtues - gorgeous campus, great food, Forest Park right next door with its museums and zoo (all free!), and the Delmar Loop offers restaurants, cafes, etc, also within walking distance. The botanical garden is lovely also. You can travel by light rail from campus to many locations in the greater St Louis area. It is a top 20 school - at that level, ranking differences become somewhat meaningless vs. the Ivies.

Columbia has a lovely enclosed campus within a dense urban environment. If you haven’t already done so, check out the core curriculum requirements and see if that appeals. In contrast, Brown has an open curriculum. The Brown campus is also beautiful and is located in a relatively compact city adjacent to a historic district. Downtown is accessed across a bridge within walking distance of campus.

Hope this helps - all great competitive schools with different vibes. If money is no object, go for fit.

13

@mamaedefamilia - As I wrote above, I know these three schools very well - not just from visiting them, and whether this student is planning on applying to Columbia, WUSTL, Brown or her state flagship university, college-level science classes are much, much, more difficult than high school AP classes - for everyone - and I am only trying to be honest about what a 31 math ACT or 740 SAT Math score implies about this student’s ability to do well in Physics and Chem classes in college. A Biology major at Brown, Columbia and WUSTL requires at least two semesters of Physics and Chem courses, and these tend to be the Scylla and Charybdis on which many aspiring pre-med students’ or Bio majors’ academic plans founder. Applying to these and other colleges as an environmental studies major (especially to these schools) would probably be a good idea. All of these schools will be looking for significant academic and extracurricular accomplishments from prospective Biology majors, and there is no shortage of applicants who have them. Finally, you are correct that Brown has no formal distribution requirements, while Columbia has the Core curriculum, which makes them both surprising choices for this student.

14

@worriestoomuch Point taken and to clarify, the context for my comment was the assertion by the OP that she felt confident about her performance on the Calc BC test. I have seen (anecdotally) that students that progress to calculus often do less well on ACT/SAT math because their precalculus skills get a bit rusty, especially at speed, which the ACT prioritizes.