As I’ve said, you have two great options here.
Have you considered the other characteristics you might want in a college? New Haven is a very different place than Charlottesville. CT is different than VA in many ways. Look at the other things that will make you a happy college student (beside the ranking and names). Happy students do better than unhappy ones.
So…look at the whole picture.
You are so fortunate to have these two options.
I think the campus culture between the two is very different. Have you visited both?
My two cents: congratulations! I don’t think there’s a bad decision here! Personally, I’d cross off South Carolina (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by USC). Between Yale and UVA, I think it’s worth trying to guess how likely it is that you’ll go to law school. If you feel fairly certain that’s in your future, because you’ve thought about it for a long time, etc., I’d lean toward UVA, because having $200K toward law school (instead of that much more in loans) will make a huge difference. If law school is one of several possibilities, and you’re still figuring all of this out, I’d lean toward Yale - but only because your parents say it’s doable. But I hope you can visit both and consider what feels right to you - none of us know you!
OP you were the topic of our dinner conversation today, and my family brought up a good point, one that has been mentioned here. If you feel you will always wonder what if, then you should go where your heart leans towards.
That sounds nice in theory - but if all the savings are gone and OP does go to grad school of some type - and my assumption would be that a Yale or Jefferson Scholar student does, then you potentially run into what so many have?
That’s why it’s important to have a serious talk with mom/dad and that they take it seriously. If they are retiring, they may face health issues in the future and need assistance, etc - and there’s just no way to know - so if you choose Yale, make sure you investigate every angle.
There are less successful Yale graduates in life just like any other school. Yale is no guarantee and for law school, if it’s truly the goal, get a bad LSAT and you’re not going top no matter what.
Get a great one - and you are. When we toured W&L and bumped into a professor and his family on campus on a Sunday, he was giddy. He told me his student got a 99%+ on the LSAT and I asked - where are they going - and he said - anywhere they want. And I think the # of colleges represented show that.
Good luck OP.
‘Paying for the Rest of My Life.’ Student Loan Debt Is Crushing an Entire Generation - CNET
OP must be driven, hard working, and gifted as they received the Jefferson scholarship so I have no doubt they will be successful wherever they go. They should go where they feel is the best home for the next four years if they are comfortable with carrying the added cost. This is my opinion, others do not have to agree with me. Ultimately it’s OP’s life and they should feel no regrets in the direction they choose for themselves.
Fully agree! We often hear from parents who feel compelled to remind us of their kids acceptances to higher ranked schools that they didn’t choose and rarely do you hear from a kid regretting going to their dream school. Follow your heart and given your acceptances, you undoubtedly have the capacity to thrive wherever you choose.
the advantages that the Yale brand will give you in life are only really applicable if you are looking for that super high stress-high pay Wall Street or IB job right out of college. and in those elitist circles, yeah I guess it makes a difference (which is so dumb in my opinion, that employers would hire you basically based on high school performance). if you are pre-med or pre-law then the next school will matter a lot more than undergrad. it always looks a little funny when there is a big drop off from college to grad school (like Yale undergrad and then Albany med school), but nobody thinks it’s weird to step up from Albany undergrad to Yale med.
this is obviously a personal decision and if you are going to spend your whole life wondering “what if I had gone to Yale? maybe I should have gone to Yale?”- well, that might be hard on you.
if you were my kid I would prob make you go to UVA. I just think it has a lot of name brand prestige to anyone who will matter. it maybe won’t make a lay person on the street’s eyes pop open, but I never needed that kind of validation.
99+% on the LSAT isn’t a ticket anywhere any more than 1600 on the SAT is.
We don’t know the exact numbers, but crushing debt is not plausible. For students whose families make < $75k per year, Yale charges ZERO tuition. Even for families whose gross income is > $250k per year, 47% of those families qualify for aid of which the median is nearly $29,000.
To have a family responsibility of $70k, the only scenario is income quite a bit over $250k or assets that are disproportionately high (or both). Neither of us is spending this family’s money, but your reference to “crushing debt” is antiquated at least as far as Harvard, Yale and Princeton outside of extenuating circumstances.
Factor in the cost of an MBA or JD. Probably 200k(ish). A first year associate at Cravath, McKinsey or Goldman easly makes in the 150-250k range. It’s doable, even without money from the parents who in this case are in the top 2-3%.
if the goal is to be a 1st year associate at McKinsey or Goldman, sure, spend the $ and go to Yale. But that’s not everyone’s goal. and having loans (or just smaller savings) will make it harder to make different career choices where you might actually be happier.
A Yale education will give you an assumption of intelligence and competence that is much more pronounced in situations where most are uneducated than at DE Shaw or Goldman. At Citadel, everyone knows smart Harvard people and dumb, lazy ones. In nowheresville, there’s one Yale grad in the entire town, and that person is the principal, head guidance counsellor, judge and town representative.
The more you interface with elite institutions, the less the degree means (except for grad schools and recruiting). If you are a lawyer in smallville, everyone will assume you’re smart. In Scarsdale, everyone knows it’s more about connections and hard work after college, and the richest people are the most connected. Other than wanting their kids to go to Yale, your neighbors won’t care.
It’s hard to quantify the benefit in life of a lot of people giving you the benefit of the doubt as to intelligence. But looking at photos of my colleagues over the decades, work is hard enough and every little bit of less wear certainly can help.
Yale is a top law school feeder, but so is UVA:
UVA is not quite as high as Yale, particularly per capita, and as I have suggested before here I think this gives you more margin for error at colleges like Yale. But if you hit the ground running at UVA and consistently do very well there, I don’t think it will hold you back.
It is going to be the same for many things. Like, here is Foreign Policy’s ranking of undergrad programs for IR:
Yale and UVA are both on there, although Yale somewhat higher.
Or this famous/infamous IB feeder study:
Again Yale and UVA are both very high, but Yale a bit higher, particularly per capita.
OK, so that margin for error is worth something, but on the other hand that is a lot of money over four years. Personally, I would only think it worth going to Yale if your family could comfortably afford it, and even then it would be perfectly rational to, say, want to save that money for law school, your first house, or whatever. I definitely do not think it is worth it under all circumstances, and in fact I do think people tend to exaggerate these differences, including in studies like this, by failing to control for all the other factors involved that are not affected by college choice.
I’m not a lawyer either.
I also didn’t attend any of these schools.
But I read this article with interest.
Maybe this is a reason why they don’t release actual headcounts?
Yale Law Class of 2013
~25% of class graduated from Harvard or Yale
50% of class graduated from an Ivy League school or Stanford
Yale Law Class of 2011
~30% of class graduated from Harvard or Yale
The article suggests there are other benefits from having the right name brand in this profession.
One sentence in that article really struck me, saying that recruiters often felt that the graduates of NON-elite schools were more prepared to practice law, and yet they still hired the elites. There is so much snobbery in the system.
Where did your kid wind up going? Just comes off as odd implying others are snobs for going to Ivies when this was your kids list. You certainly seemed “prestige aware”.
I didn’t mean people are snobs for going to Ivies, not at all- I meant the bigger system. like the whole employment system, that preferentially hires Ivy grads even while saying that the non-elite grads are often better-prepared to practice. that’s a strange phenomenon to me.
of course I am prestige-aware, in the sense that I am very concerned about whether a kid from a non-elite college is at a major disadvantage later in life. so it’s a practical issue for me, not a brand-name thing.
Thanks for clarifying.
also, that post was like 5 years ago! people change!
also, snobbery is not the right word. it sounds judgy- I don’t really mean it that way.
And I agree and said upstream - I was just noting there’s a lot more to consider - and many have made a choice that proved fatal.
In the end, a family can spend as a family determines - but a 17 year old isn’t necessarily aware of the happenings and life and that’s why I said - truly discuss with your family - and wished them luck.
Well - the student said - they have $200K set aside. If they get into a top law school - and in this case Yale, they do not fully cover - and we don’t know what type of assets the retired parents have - but potentially some. And getting in is a big if…if they even go down that path in four years.
So yes, potentially crushing debt.
You are assuming a job at McKinsey or a top bank - that’s a HUGE assumption that most at Yale won’t be in that position.
It’s really a risk decision here - and I am risk averse. And for those who say - some just want people go to the cheapest - let’s move on from that buffoonery because the choice is potentially the most prestigious public college scholarship and program in the country.
You cannot assess (nor can any of us) the parents ability to fund law school or what the requirements that would be put on the student.
As for the 99th percentile - I didn’t say it. A poli sci professor at W&L said it when I asked why he was so giddy - so I’ll take him at his word - perhaps the student excelled in all facets.
Again, I said upthread the student really needs to sit the parent down - and discuss with them the pros and cons - and the financial considerations that Yale will bring for further schooling.
I said - in the end, the student’s family should spend their money as they see fit - and in this last message i said the following which is my perspective - and we all are entitled.
That’s why it’s important to have a serious talk with mom/dad and that they take it seriously. If they are retiring, they may face health issues in the future and need assistance, etc - and there’s just no way to know - so if you choose Yale, make sure you investigate every angle.