On the Yale accusation, I can speculate that what Montague was alleged to have done was worse than drunk sex where she didn’t make non-consent clear. I speculate that she alleged that she made her non-consent very clear and he nevertheless proceeded. And it does seem plausible that hers was not the only accusation.
I say this because there are numerous Yale cases like this one, where the complaint of intercourse without consent was made in the informal proceedings, and stayed there:
So why was this particular case brought to the formal UWC proceedings by the Title IX coordinator?
– There was something especially heinous about this incident (i.e., not just regular old unconsented sex).
– There were prior complaints, and a pattern the administrator knew about. Maybe probation from a prior incident.
– Crusading Title IX coordinator forces the university’s hand by proceeding formally against popular, preppie sports star. She knows this will have an impact and get talked about on campus.
I think JHS was being tongue in cheek. There is no use speculating about this case because there simply isn’t enough known facts to speculate. All the facts agreed to by both sides have been published.
It’s true that we don’t have enough facts, though I’d only agree that the agreed-upon facts that Montague’s team of lawyers wanted released have been published, which are almost certainly not ALL the facts. What she did in that interval between the 4th and 5th encounter, for example, is conspicuously absent from the timetable–and I’m guessing there are people outside “he” and “she” who would attest to that.
At any rate, I think we can speculate, and the wording of Yale’s public statements makes me speculate most about the first two items on JHS’s list in post 281.
FWIW, I’m writing as the mom of male athletes. I get worried about false accusation all the time, but I worry about acquaintance rape on college campuses too. No process–including, God knows, the criminal justice system–works perfectly all the time, but on the whole, I’ve no reason so far to question the efficacy of Yale’s enforcement of its Sexual Misconduct Policy.
On the whole, I’d say that the online reaction (this conversation is an exception) is far more guilty of holding a kangaroo court than Yale is. In response to @JHS 's thoughtful critique of the process in post 272, I wonder if the kind of reforms we’ve been discussing here would really have any affect on public opinion, which seems more driven by a fervor against political correctness, social justice warriors, and radical feminism than any real understanding of Yale’s policies and procedures.
I agree with this. The statement that this guy’s attorney released doesn’t make me think he’s innocent … I’ve listened to enough presentations from just one side to know that they’re often close to technically accurate but omit enough key facts that they might as well be outright lies … I also know that schools like Yale are hamstrung by privacy laws, and that being able to say one or two sentences would clear things up completely.
I don’t know about anyone else, but statements like this one from the Yale report - in a vacuum - really horrify me. I don’t see how being referred for “sexual consent training” is even close to an adequate punishment for “sexual intercourse without her consent”.
“Sexual intercourse without her consent” without any mitigating circumstances is rape, pure and simple, and I don’t see how a rapist should continue to be part of the university community. The only thing that could explain this in my mind is if the language that the UWC is allowed to use is too vague to convey important details, and in fact this was an incident where reasonable people could think that consent was given … like a woman who was quite drunk but not at all incapacitated and who actively participated in the act. However, as it stands this statement from Yale seems to me like they are saying they are OK with rape.
Which brings me to …
I have to say that I have very mixed feelings about this. I think the idea that the victim gets to decide the punishment is something of a dangerous idea. Rape is an offense against society and the university community, and the punishment should be mostly based on what the university community establishes as appropriate, not just on whatever a given complainant thinks is fitting.
Of course, I understand that reporting an incident can be very traumatic and we should try to respect a complainant's wishes as to whether she wants to proceed with a hearing. Also, there may be mitigating circumstances that a victim will want to speak to. But once we've had a hearing, taken into account the nuances of a particular incident, and established guilt, then I think the punishment should be based on the offense and not the victim's wishes.
5 cases…no expulsions. No suspensions. No counseling. No community services. 5 cases. 5 dismissals.
One of my best friends went to Penn. I don’t think so.
This is an interesting story. Williams College is now using a fromer judge and an attorney to handle sexual assault issues. After reading this…I can see why.
At this point the lawyer is not going to say anything that isn’t on the record…he would cherry pick his statements, but i have no doubt they are accurate statements contained in whatever document he was able to access. So yes, no one except certain members of the tribunal, the Title ix office, the girl and the guy know what happened the 4th time after they had sex, parted and then were together again for the rest of the night.
I do agree with Al and advocate mandatory reporting for criminal accusations. We don’t even know if “what happened” met New Jersey’s criminal sexual assault statute. Probably did for Yale to expel. We only know it violated whatever Yale considers. it’s on record that she says there was not consent the fourth night…although it doesn’t say whether it was the first time they were together that night or the second time they were together that night.
I agree with you. I wish more women would step up and proceed through the formal complaint process if they believe they have been sexually assaulted. But this forum has helped me evolve in my thinking -the tattoo discussion was a real turning point for me. People have very different views on sexual assault - I don’t have standing to “download” my preferences on other women. Think for a moment how the life of Montague’s accuser has changed in the last few months on Yale’s campus. I would imagine that it’s not easy to walk that road @al2simon, especially when you are up against someone with his social capital. Some women can do it, some don’t want to.
I will say again that I think Yale’s overall policy is a very good one. They do address the issue of how penalties are determined and I think they strike a pretty good balance with the wishes of the complainant being only one of them:
@al2simon, I was the one who originally quoted this, from Yale’s stories of resolution of allegations:
This was the resolution of an “Informal Complaint.” First of all, I don’t think suspension and expulsion are even on the table in the informal system. Secondly, notice that she alleged that he engaged in intercourse without her consent, but there is no finding of responsibility here-- there never is in the resolutions of informal complaints. We shouldn’t be surprised if a student is not suspended or expelled when the accuser intentionally brought the complaint to a forum where suspension and expulsion are not possible results.
This is precisely why it’s remarkable that the complaint against Montague was brought forward by an adminstrator. It didn’t have to be-- there’s this entire informal complaint system at Yale. There are a lot of these informal complaints where she alleges that he engaged in sexual activity without her consent and then the administration tells him to stay away from her and makes him go to consent training, seven such resolutions in the six month period I was looking at. These are cases where the accuser has chosen not to make a formal complaint where serious punishments are a possibility. But in Montague’s case the Title IV administrator decided to bring a formal complaint when the alleged victim did not.
That is why I feel sorry for her. If and only if she never intended it to escalate. She had a right not to call the police (but I think women should if the law has been broken) her “mistake” if there really is any related to the accusation and aftermath was going to talk to the Title IX office. But I have to belief that a woman attending Yale is smart enough to understand how things translate from paper to action and at a minimum she knew the worse possible outcome for the person she was accusing. It’s akin to being alittle bit pregnant you either were assaulted or you weren’t, you are either pregnant or you aren’t.
@al2simon, one other thought. In the criminal justice system before a Judge sentences a defendant he listens to a “victim impact statement.” A judge may use information from these statements to help determine an offender’s sentence and a parole board may use the information to help decide whether to grant a parole.
So how the victim feels about the crime is also weighed outside the college tribunals.
^ only sometimes, and only at the punishment phase. But the charging decision is always made by the prosecutor. It is set up that way in part to ensure there is consistency of enforcement.
Right, at sentencing the judge can take into account the victim’s statement. Same as in Yale’s policy - one factor they weigh when arriving at a penalty.
@HarvestMoon1 - Yes, that makes sense, and taking some account of the victim’s feelings is fine. I guess what doesn’t make much sense to me is the wide range of possibilities … that, depending on how the victim feels about the crime and what path within the college’s system they want to pursue, the punishment for an offense like rape could range from expulsion to a no-contact order and sexual consent training. That’s way too big a range of possibilities for my tastes. Perhaps it would make more sense to me if it were possible to get more details about all the cases.
To be honest, some of my post was off-base because I was reading too quickly and did not catch the fact that you (& others) were talking about the differences between the formal vs. informal processes. Apologies.
As you might remember, I am a big believer in mediation. However, it’s not because mediation is “easier” or because I think the victim should have strong control over the punishment. It’s because in my experience in a lot of these cases fall into a gray area where both kids bear responsibility for what happened and both made significant mistakes. So to me what route the case should go should be determined by the nature of the facts, not by the victim’s desires (admittedly this distinction can be murky).
It seems like I’m a bit of an oddball (as usual). I’m more of a “hanging judge”, but I want to be surer of guilt before throwing the switch. It seems like the new system is (on paper) more ok with finding people responsible for rape on the basis of little more than a coin flip, but is also ok with many potentially guilty people just receiving a wrist slap.
Sometimes I wonder whether I’m crazy or the last sane person in a world gone mad 8-} 8-}
@al2simon, do you have numbers that show more people are being held responsible for rape and more people are guilty and then receive wrist slaps?
I mean significant number differences. There are more victims comng forward but the aggregate numbers are still low.
You mentioned that the preponderance of evidence rules were forced on schools before the DCL. 2 or 3 years before. That puts us into 2008-2009.
There is a lag time after rule changes to see differences. The 2012-2013 complaint and expulsion numbers are extremely low.
I think the reporting numbers are up 50 percent from those numbers in 2008-2013. Maybe less than 50 percent. But… 50 percent of a low number is still a very low number
You talk to people on this field. Do you have numbers that are different than what I just wrote?
