Yale Community at Odds Over Consent

Parents Forum
301

@dstark - I do not have solid numbers for you. However, I did look at the “How colleges resolve sexual assault cases” link from the Washington Post that you posted. If you just look at the schools that roughly match the profile that I’m familiar with & assume it’s full year data, it doesn’t look to me like there are any more expulsions or suspensions than there were in the “old days” (BTW - MIT is definitely the outlier in this group). Honestly, there seems like there were even fewer in 2012-13 than before, but this is rough data and it might be 6 month data too.

However, there is one big caveat I should highlight. Many of the guys who might have been suspended or expelled instead ended up withdrawing from school before disciplinary hearings were held - this made it easier for them to transfer to another school, but not everyone could do this. I don’t know if that’s still the case or if they’re counted in the statistics you posted (I’m assuming not).

If you believe this, it seems like we have more cases now but no more expulsions / suspensions than before.

DCL was issued in April 2011, but iirc schools sort of knew it was coming beforehand. Several were doing their own work to overhaul their handling of sexual assault cases, but I think everything ground to a halt as they were waiting for DCL to be issued. I would say the 2012-13 school year would show only some of DCL’s effect. My guess is that 2014-15 might be the first “full effect” year.

I only occasionally talk to people in this field now (this definitely wasn’t my area of expertise; there were people including a few women’s rights activists who focused on this area). The conversations revolved around the challenges of implementing DCL, all the uncertainty it caused, and the problems it created for them in trying to do their jobs in a way they felt was fair. I did get the impression that there were more cases now. I did not get the impression they were expelling students at a higher rate. I also have the impression that things are now settling down to a “new normal”, But all this is just a guess.

302

@al2simon,

Thanks.

I agree that 2014-2015 might be the first full effect year.

The following …

If what you wrote is true, then the preponderance of evidence standard and due process issues are not really having an effect. Maybe, the schools are adjusting without kicking students out.

That tells me we are having political arguments instead of real arguments. I hate political arguments instead of arguing about facts. That means we are deciding based on emotion, manipulation, maybe power, instead of what’s good for the population, instead of what’s true.

I don’t see a material effect on expulsions with the OCR demands at Yale. I don’t see a material effect at Berkeley. I love Berkeley but if the school’s low reporting numbers match the numbers where I live in Marin County, Berkeley isn’t doing its job. :slight_smile:

Stanford didn’t expel anybody for 6 years. Now Stanford might expel a few people a year. There is a 3 person panel . And if one person on the panel says no expulsion, there is no expulsion. They banned one student from campus last year without due process. The guy was caught in the act by two guys who captured him. Does Stanford really need due process on this? The guy was caught putting objects into a young woman who was out of it.

@Hanna said she is working with 15 students who were expelled. I realize some people are expelled. The number isn’t zero. That list you looked at with 100 schools has about 51 expulsions. That is an extremely low number.

I agree with what @HarvestMoon1 and @ jonri write about this subject. That’s two attorneys I agree with. :slight_smile:
I agree with @classicalmama too. She has a kid at Yale. I think what she says is right on point.

How do people know Yale is doing a bad job? @al2simon, when you first started posting, you said, maybe to me, :slight_smile: how do you know the schools are doing a bad job on sexual assaults? “You don’t have the facts”.

@al2simon, do you know that Yale is doing a bad job?

303

In the article where our @Hanna was quoted, a Yale spokesman said, “Only about one out of 10 cases ends in expulsion, and the decision to expel a student is made only after the most careful consideration, based on the facts and, when appropriate, disciplinary history.” This isn’t the first time that a Yale administration comment on this case has brought up disciplinary history. Could it be wink, wink, nudge, nudge, we have no comment but y’know when we consider these cases we always consider whether this was not the first offense if you know what I mean and I think you do?

304

I think what is more scary now than some of the issues we discuss is a couple of states, NY and Virginia, now require schools to put expelled for sexual assault on the transcripts. There may be more states requiring this.

That can really screw up a young person’s life and I think we have to be careful about this. I don’t have the answer.

Whatever @momofthreeboys says, I am going to take the opposite side. :slight_smile:

305

@dstark - At the risk of oversimplifying, let me try to distill my understanding of the argument to its core. I hope I’m not being too unfair to anyone. Also, I’m just going to focus on selective privates since that is what I know.

Me - OCR’s mandate to change to preponderance (absent any other due process protections) is unfair and bad
Dstark - Not to worry, the data shows that the schools aren’t really doing anything different. They’ve made adjustments so that there isn’t much of a net change.
JHS (post 272) - Nobody with a conscience is going to expel a student based on a preponderance standard. They are secretly cheating and using a clear and convincing standard for expulsion cases. That’s why we don’t see much of a change.

Me - I don’t get it. How is that a defense of the switch to the preponderance standard? Seems more like an indictment to me if the “justification” of the change is that it isn’t doing much and panels need to evade it in order to be fair. I don’t think this is a “political” point.
(BTW - I know that JHS wasn’t defending the preponderance standard. I highlighted his post because, not being a fool, I suspect he is right about what is actually going on.)

Me - Seems like we should allow schools to change their standard back if they think it’s best.We shouldn’t have rules that we know are bad on the books. It’s bound to backfire.
Dstark - Tweaking to improve things is good.
Me - Yep. Too bad DCL doesn’t allow us to change this. Seems like we should “meta-tweak” DCL. When did that become sacred scripture?

Is Yale doing a bad job? Honestly, seems like they are doing about as well as they did a few years before. Maybe they’re doing a bit better since reporting rates are up. They also seem like they’re doing about as well as any other school. But if you want me to state the case against them, here’s my attempt -

  1. Wasn’t part of the whole premise the fact that there were 25 times more completed rapes occurring on campuses than were being appropriately punished? Then that’s still the case. We need to understand this better. Grade = C-

  2. Nobody seems to be claiming that the number of sexual assaults has gone down as a result of all these changes. Grade = D-

  3. It seems bad to me that the process allows suspected rapists to get off with “sexual consent training”. Other thoughtful people are grudgingly ok with it since they feel we must defer to the victims’ wishes about how to proceed. Grade = B-.

  4. Reporting rates are up, but are still nowhere near what the surveys indicate they should be. Grade = B+

So I give them a C overall. Of course, at Yale a “C” is a pretty bad grade :slight_smile:

Depends. Are they guilty of rape or aren’t they? Do you trust the processes or don’t you?

306

I agree with most of what al2simon is saying. One reason I trust Yale’s disciplinary procedure is that they pretty clearly do not use the preponderance of evidence standard to expel students. If their annual report is any indication, however, they do use it to discipline students. I actually am optimistic–perhaps naiive–enough to hope that probation coupled with counseling/training may be effective in curtailing acquaintance rape and helping to create a better mindset. That said, I’m all for expulsion when warranted, particulary when someone with a past “appropriate disciplinary history” keeps showing up. In those cases, the softer measures obviously aren’t enough.

As it happens, I graduated many moons ago from UVA. When the Jackie story hit, many of us were outraged even though the allegations always sounded over the top. When the story smashed, we were still outraged. Why? Because we were there. We knew how integral the assault of women was to the party culture of that school. I can vividly remember my boyfriend telling me about how his frat divided college girls into “wives” and “whores.” A part of every house meeting was devoted to tallying how who scored how many times at that month’s parties. I spent 9 stupid months in that relationship.

While there’s too much sexual assault still out there, what the sexual assault policies and procedures at schools like Yale have done–I think–is to make that kind of overt, accepted culture of rape less acceptable. I’d like to have seen the boys in my boyfriend’s fraternity have to sit down, one on one, with a counselor and discuss the definition of sexual assault. I think most were smart enough and good enough at the core, that some reflection on what they were doing with someone outside the weird norms of their frat would probably have had an effect. I can say that my boys are much more aware of what rape is, what consent means, why sex with someone who is incapacitated is wrong (rather than a good way to score) than we were. My nineteen-year-old self knew what my boyfriend and his frat bros were doing was wrong, but I didn’t have the words to name it. This generation does, and that’s a huge step forward.

307

I think BOTH sexes need alot of education about alcohol use, about personal safety and risk, about something other than the mechanics of sex and keeping oneself safe from STDs and unwanted pregnancies…but I think college is too late.

308

@al2simon, if schools want to get rid of the preponderance of evidence standard, they need to grow some …,. And push the change. Harvard and Penn professors have publicly come out against the preponderance of evidence standard. They need to push. Others need to join in. Change doesn’t just occur.

You also said one of the biggest problems is the victims aren’t coming forward and reporting what happened. If the standard is raised, there will be less reporting.

Responding to Your numbers

  1. I made that argument. You told me the schools are doing a better job than I thought and if I saw the actual cases, I would agree. Now you are giving Yale a C.

  2. Going to take time. Going to be hard to measure.

  3. Humans behave in certain ways. Some victims are not going to want to go through the process of punishing the attacker. Its too painful to relive. The victims may be too traumatized. Victims want to move forward and go on with their lives. Yale steps in if the school thinks the accused should be judged and the victim doesn’t want to go forward. That’s bad?

Its not just sexual assault cases that occur on campus where victims don’t want to prosecute or try to punish. In many other types cases, victims do not want to prosecute.

  1. Reporting rates are never going to come close to matching survey rates. But you gave this a B+ so… I will go on…

The last point you addressed…
There is usually going to be some subjectivity. Life can be very grey. Do we really want to punish this way? Sexual assault written into the transcript in every case? Its like mandatory drug sentencing or the 3 strikes and you’re out law in Calif. Those laws can be a little too much.

These aren’t cases in court we are talking about, but in court, a punishment can be enacted on a lesser crime than what the defendant is accused of doing.

A guy is accused a couple times of sexual assault or sexual harassment but we don’t really know with certainty if he commited these acts. Like the man said from the University of Texas, sometimes we just don’t want the guy on campus anymore. Do we really have to permanently put sexual assault on the transcripts?

I do know somebody who was kicked out of school for a he said/she said case. Its a complicated case. I think he was really kicked out for multiple behaviorial issues. The guy has some issues but he is not a bad guy. Maybe he should have been kicked out. The girl may not have been able to give consent. I don’t know how the girl is doing. The school did not write sexual assault on the transcript. That might have been the correct call. Making it mandatory to write sexual assault on the transcript may have been the wrong call.

309

I noticed that line too CF and thought the same thing.

While the Title IX coordinator brought theYale case, I would think the woman would have had to cooperate with the investigation in order for it to move forward. Could the committee make her testify if she didn’t want to? It still seems like it would have been difficult to come up with evidence over a year later that this was not consensual, especially if at least some of the basic facts are true.

I feel for her. She can’t say much and yet is reading more and more about what a great guy he is and how this was (in the most recent article) a witch hunt. Not to mention what may be happening on the campus.

As for the KU case, good for her. Although I have some doubts that the legal action her family is taking will be upheld. How could a college possibly insure that their dorms are completely “safe” and that sexual assault never happens? Go back to parietal rules?

310

This…

What classicalmama wrote…

311

RE #309. I would hope that is true, but not so clear that the culture has changed. Given that woman are still lining up to be “allowed” into frat parties based on looks tells me the frat culture is still alive and strong at many schools. Not sure the hook-up culture is changing either - still a lot of drunken kids every weekend at many colleges hooking up. Adults on this board and in other places can’t quite agree on what constitutes consent and what is assault, not sure that drunk young men (and women) have figured it out either.

312

@al2simon very well said. I would argue that if in fact the OCR mandates were not necessary than they have in fact been a net negative, because the nature of the rules makes it too easy to question any finding from the tribunals,

@classicalmama, ditto.

@dstark. If Harvard and Princeton knuckle under the threat of having federal funding pulled, there is no way any other schools can afford to take on the OCR. At the end of the day the fight costs OCR nothing. They just continue saying what they have been saying, that the dear colleague letter merely states their interpretation of the law. Schools on the other hand would have to deal with an investigation and sue. Don’t think there are any schools who can withstand the loss of federal funds for the three or so years that would take. Either way, I don’t think anything happens until after the election. One of the problems with rule making by fiat is that if there is a change in administration, it is easier to walk back something like the dear colleague letter rather than change administrative regs.

313

@Ohiodad51, Harvard and Princeton are never going to lose federal funding. The amount of taxpayer support these private institutions receive is ridiculous. The schools probably should lose some federal funding.

Pushing to change rules is going to cause the loss of federal funding? Come on… Not following the rules may cause a loss of federal funding. Pushing for a change of rules is going to cause a loss of federal funding? Can you give us one case where this happened?

314

Well, i guess it depends on what you mean by the distinction between “pushing” and “not following”. If by pushing you mean implementing the rules OCR wants and advocating for something else, then yes I agree with you. I think we see some of that going on now, to indeterminate effect. What I am talking about is challenging the mandates in the letter in court, or setting what the school believes is the appropriate standard and making OCR come at you which is kinda the usual method of challenging an agency’s power to do an act.

315

I think the assault being sexual is making the issue more confusing. I find it useful to compare to other types of assault.

If this was assault as in someone punched someone in the face, we’d expect reporting while the injury is still obvious, and if someone didn’t report it, they couldn’t get someone arrested for committing the crime.

That is what happens in some domestic abuse cases - unless there is long-standing or permanent physical damage, the victim has to report quick enough for evidence of abuse to be obvious. Or they are out of luck. Literally, until a bone is broken, or there is a witness, or scars are left, the onus is on the victim to know, to be strong enough, to report the injury immediately.

Does the victim tell their friends, family, a counselor, or anyone about what happened being an assault?

Even if the injury is nonconsensual sex, which can occur in domestic violence cases.

I don’t know the details of the Yale case, or when it was reported by the victim, but even if she was a victim, there has to be probable cause to arrest the accused. Then there has to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt for the accused to be convicted.

I think the trouble is when you get a victim who doesn’t report immediately, because that can result in the accused having their rights violated.

The last line of this article is apropos:
“If there’s one lesson for New York from the exalted quads of Yale, it’s that any sexual assault severe enough to merit expulsion equally demands an immediate phone call to the police.”

YES it is true that sexual assault can result in psychological trauma that results in not reporting immediately.

But YES it is true that ANY assault can result in psychological trauma that results in not reporting immediately.

I have a healed broken bone that was caused by my physical abuser when I was a teen. I didn’t report it immediately, I didn’t even know a bone was broken. When I went to the doctor with my parents, I was told “don’t tell them who did it” under threats of calling the police on me. That doesn’t mean I wasn’t a victim of abuse or assault. It just means that I didn’t realize the damage at the time.

My abuser got off scot free (until I beat him up and he stopped beating me up…). Do I have a right to get him arrested now because he abused me? Can we even prove that he did, even though it was clear my parents knew and told me not to tell?

No, and that’s where the “reporting after the fact” becomes very cloudy. It wasn’t a murder (we have a murder trial in our state that is 25 years after the child was killed). And it wasn’t serial sexual abuse of a child. If what she said is true, this was assault by an adult on an adult. And that, unfortunately, depends on quick reporting (even if that quick reporting is to a counselor or other non-police non-medical person), and not on deciding after a year that what happened was really sexual assault.

I don’t think colleges should be in charge of morals outside of legal issues. And I don’t think victims’ rights should always supersede those of the accused. Just because a situation seems unjust and unfair doesn’t mean the solution is to be unjust and unfair to someone else.

316

al2simon re: your #297:

Yes, but I think there is a “check” on the range of possibilities for the most egregious cases - the ones we really would not want to slip by unaddressed. The provision of Yale’s policy which authorizes the coordinator to take an informal report to the UWC if there is evidence of a violation alleviates some of my concern. And the provision that allows the UWC to commence an investigation without the cooperation of the complainant gives me more comfort. Would you agree that reporting on an informal basis is better than not reporting at all?

I think some of these cases fall into the “gray area” and these seem to be the ones that get press. In my own mind the gray ones are those that involve excessive alcohol consumption where impairment of both parties turns the encounter into a total fiasco. We all struggle with those cases. Absent impairment, I don’t view the “he said she said” cases as “gray”, someone is lying and someone is telling the truth. Getting to the truth is the challenge and that’s hard no matter what system you are proceeding in.

For the "gray’ cases involving alcohol, I do believe the definition of “consent” that most schools are using is an attempt to change the culture on college campuses. Effectively they are trying to impress upon both parties that it can be hazardous to engage in a drunken intimate encounter with someone you don’t know well. While I would prefer that young adults be able to negotiate these types of things on their own, I think it is clear they at least some of them might need some more direction in this area.

Oh I don’t know @al2simon, the quality of your posts do not suggest that either of those adjectives is particularly apt… :slight_smile: I don’t always agree with you, but I do appreciate your contributions to these discussions. You questioned if perhaps you are “doctrinaire.” I would say more “professorial” - I mean you basically just graded all of our arguments in your #304, although I know you said you were evaluating Yale. :slight_smile: I got a B-.

I have only gotten to the second paragraph of your #304 and I am already wanting to walk you back a little in your premise. I thought we pretty much determined that there were many, many schools that were not in fact using the “clear and convincing” standard prior to 2011. So we really can’t start with the premise that this lowering of the standard is some earth shattering change. On one hand you have Princeton and Harvard howling about it, but on the other hand you have MIT and Dartmouth - 2 peer institutions- who have always used the PPE standard.

317

Yale’s public reporting of sexual assaults on campus is more public and detailed than any other school.

Some of you are very tough graders. :wink:

318

@dstark on the issue of transcript notation that you raised I am not really sure how I feel about it. Yes, NY and Virginia appear to be the 2 states where it is now mandated by law.

I do find it interesting though that it was Paul Trible who lobbied the Virginia legislators for the change. He was the President of CNU - the university that Jesse Matthews transferred to after being expelled from another college for sexual assault. CNU had no knowledge of his prior record. I have to a assume that the subsequent deaths of 2 women weighed heavily on Trible.

319

@HarvestMoon1, yes. Some of these questions are very complicated. Sometimes, I don’t know.

I got a little off track in responding to @al2simon. I have to remember what you wrote. Using The preponderance of evidence standard is not some earth shattering change.

I think the onus is on those that want a stricter standard to prove why this is necessary.

Because as I wrote, the stricter the standard, the less people are going to report. The numbers are not showing a huge increase in expulsions so far. That shouldn’t be blown off as not relevant.

320

^^^
@dstark you are thinking like a lawyer now. :slight_smile: