I think there are lots of workplaces where there is some level of resentment-- whether it’s a union environment (so a structural mechanism of “them vs. us”), healthcare (up until recently, it was the physicians who called the shots and everyone else who executed- and now, an increasing shift to the health system corporate leaders, many of whom are not physicians pushing back on physicians AND everyone else), Military (enlisted vs. officers), etc.
I don’t know how to explain the current levels of anger, resentment, etc. in society. Although social media for sure exacerbates it-- even when it’s not bots exploiting people by posting lies, it means that information travels quickly and with commentary. And the old system (the gossip columns posting both laudatory and critical articles about celebrities and “famous people”) was controlled vs. the current “Here’s a picture of RFK Junior eating a gumdrop with artificial coloring” where anyone with a phone who thinks they saw RFK at their local 7/11 is all of a sudden an accredited journalist.
I have no solutions. But I worry about where our society and country is heading.
And to the original point- there are millions of people in this country who NEVER cared about a “focus on academic elitism”, and STILL don’t care. So I don’t agree with the thread’s premise. And I live in a community- in an urban area in the supposedly “obsessed with academic status Northeast”- where most people STILL don’t care. Many of my neighbors want their kids to be popular- which means the boys should be on a traveling team of some sport (semi elite signalling?), the girls should excel at tennis, gymnastics, figure skating or cheerleading (all those expensive outfits to complain about!) and everyone needs to brag about their workout routines ad nauseum- weights, pickle ball, Peloton and the leaderboard, protein loading before or after the triathaelon workouts, incessant golf, etc.
There is really not a lot of time to be contemplating String Theory with these lifestyles. And they neither disdain nor idolize academic elitism- it just doesn’t play into their lives or value systems. The ROI on installing a pizza oven on the back patio? That they can discuss. Trollope’s views on conspicuous consumption? Blank.
I totally disagree with this. The current buzz (not the 100 years ago buzz by Harvard College) is against these students, and is racist for the reasons I outlined.
You’ve not said what you disagree with. I agree that the discrimination against Jewish and Asian students is racist. How can you argue that this discrimination is not coming from the academic elite, when admissions tutors are the ones deciding not to admit Asian students because they are (in your words) “grinders” and Jewish students are experiencing anti-semitism from students and staff at these elite universities?
It is clear that academia is now being dragged into political fights and there’s no easy way to escape, especially given the political preferences of most academics, which manifests as disdain for and often outright opposition to the current administration (whose lifeblood is picking fights with opponents). This article is a good example of how those on the right are continuing to stir things up:
Of course this is only going to increase the disdain for academic elites amongst the non-elite. Confidence in higher education has been in decline for years and I think that’s more likely to accelerate rather than being reversed anytime soon:
OK I think the distinction is which discrimination/bias we’re talking about Unfortunately, we do get it from both ends.
YES - of course you’re right that there are significant antisemitism and anti-Asian racism among what some would consider the “academic elite” (in terms of admission/protests/etc.)
BUT - what I was talking about is the trash-talking about the intellectual elite among the general public. When random-guy on social media talks about grinds who just work all the time but don’t understand the “salt of the earth,” I’ve seen those people veer into anti-Chinese-immigrant nonsense and then into outright racism. When similar-guy talks about globalists and money, they veer into Jews being good with money and/or taking all the quant jobs and so forth.
I felt OP focused only those people in higher education who may consider themselves “elite”. As mentioned by other posters, there are jerks in all walks of society, including athletes, artists, entertainers, politicians, or PhD’s. Do you (OP) personally feel ostracized by the “academic elite”?
I’ve posted elsewhere, that as a society I feel we place far too much emphasis on sports, finances, competition and entertainment, rather than education and cooperation. I wish we would celebrate education much more than it is, rather than less! I fully agree that some feel test scores are units of accomplishment, and unfortunately may emphasize these over honesty, leadership, or even true learning. The last time I attended an awards ceremony at a school (long ago), there were very few awards for being the kindest, or for most volunteer hours, for example. Most were for sports, academic, or possibly music accomplishments. I would appreciate awards for all types of valued endeavors, but ultimately, it is easier to flag “winners” in a competitive situation, or those that involve numbers, than it is to reward values. And at some point, it is easy to return to participation awards, where it might be meaningless at higher levels of achievement.
And speaking of rewarding values, kindness, empathy, etc. Some examples by elected leaders would be nice – but that’s a topic for another thread.
I suspect that some of us are operating under different definitions of academic elites or those who focus on academic elitism as compared to intellectual elites. MY definition of intellectual elites would include those folks who would love a discussion of Trollope and his views on conspicuous consumption (loved the name drop, @Blossom). They might also be considered the ones who are excited to go to the Elite School because of all the things they can study and the intellectual environment.
I would argue that’s a different population than the ones who want to attend the Elite School because it’s where they can network with people with power and/or money as it’s likely to help them have more power/money (and I’m talking top 1% or fraction of top 1%, not going from full ride because one’s family has an SAI of $0 to being in the top 10-15%). These are the ones who are more excited about name dropping the name of the college than discussing what is being learned at the college.
No group is monolithic, particularly not those who attend elite colleges. There are plenty of their grads who go on to work in nonprofits and plenty who work in for-profit areas that show no sense of disdain toward others. But when we see the kids (or their parents) come on CC with their list of all reach schools plus their state flagship and they don’t even want to consider any schools that are less exclusive than their elite reach schools and they feel that ending up at anything less than an elite institution is a disappointment, that says something to me.
Of course, I’m not a fan of disdain in any form, whether it’s from D1 athletes toward D3 athletes, or musicians who have attained a more exclusive status than others, either. I just don’t see those areas as widespread as the divide between the “academic elite” (i.e. namedroppers who are interested in the networking/money/power aspects of attending an elite institution) and others.
And yes, there are elements of our society that are trying to divide the populace and cause more infighting to ignore what’s going on at the top. But if I look at what’s been happening to our country over the last 10 years in particular, it’s astounding how little some people even want to interact with people who are not like them (whether that’s around education, political beliefs, religion, etc.).
Interesting. My dad was a true conscientious objector (the nutty fundamentalist church I grew up in). He didn’t think it was right to even serve in a non-combat role. When the government didn’t agree with his position, his father contacted LBJ through a connection. I have the signed letter from LBJ stating he would try to help my dad.
But about then he married my mom and I came along very quickly. Now I wonder… !!!
Back to the topic, the engineers I work with don’t trust engineers who graduate from elite schools like MIT! The thought is they’re a little stuck-up and have a lot of theoretical knowledge but no common sense. One of the few engineers I worked with who got fired was a MIT grad. He was known at being very good at spotting problems but not knowing how to solve them.
It’s kind of ironic. The gen X academic elites included old money legacy type students at ivies, but also a lot of middle class “smart kids” who felt much more at home at their elite colleges than they ever did at public high school. Spending adulthood in a mode that prizes “snobby intellectualism” as a trait when selecting friends and neighbors, and in raising children, might derive largely from their own childhood discomfort with mainstream suburban culture/beauty standards/etc. rather than a desire to oppress others. Yet it maybe comes across as elitism when someone’s conversation runs to fancy music camps and where folks are applying to college, rather than what happened on Love Island. Is it surprising that this cultural difference is now being exploited for political points? I mean, people are using race, gender, sexuality, and religion to promote division, so I’m not surprised that “schooliness” (and education level itself) is also weaponized as a divider by candidates, operatives, bad actors using social media to destabilize America, and anyone that stands to gain money or power by putting people against one another.
OP here. No, I don’t feel ostracized by the “academic elite.” But then again, I have factors that mitigate any potential areas of disdain:
I have significant confidence in my own degree of intelligence.
I have markers of academic success, including having attended an “academically elite” institution for grad school.
My work environment gives very little attention to the name of one’s alma mater.
Most of my social circle gives very little attention to the name of one’s alma mater.
I’ve been able to meet the basics of the “American Dream” goals of full-time employment with benefits, homeownership, car ownership, and having a kid.
I am intimately acquainted with people raised in the same family, some of whom attended “academically elite” schools and others who did not, and how their real lives look as compared to what they share on social media. I am also aware of scars and strife caused by disdain between those attending the elite vs. some of the non-elite schools.
Essentially, I’ve had opportunities to go into the “academically elite” direction, but opted out.
But, if I wasn’t confident in my own degree of intelligence and education, or if my family treated me as less than or as the black sheep of the family for not meeting certain expectations, or if I was surrounded by a cohort of everyone who was obsessed with achieving “academically elite” status, or if I was talking about my own personal experience with job loss, or home affordability, or something else, and people were dismissing my opinions because I didn’t have as much education, well, I could see feeling ostracized or at least disdained.
Definitely! But these kids who may not have fit in at their public high school could have perhaps found a similar crowd in the honors college at their public university or at a place like St. John’s (link for those not familiar with it). If folks are more interested in academic stuff than sports, popular media, music, etc, that is totally, 100% fine…even great! But the issue is when someone’s gunning for MIT or Cal Tech and doesn’t even want to consider a school like Missouri S&T or Michigan Tech or CO School of Mines. Or (and I’m not saying they’re elite, but just a very popular school) they’re interested in U. of MIchigan but wouldn’t consider U. of Wisconsin or U. of Minnesota. All of those schools are excellent, but MIT, Cal Tech, and (for certain folks) UMich have a cachet that the others don’t, and they’re not willing to consider schools without the cachet.
(emphasis added)
Talking about going to music camp is fine. Needing to talk about the “fancy” music camp is the elite signaling I’m talking about. If people had the same degree of interest and support for a kid talking about applying to SHYMP as a handful of Colleges That Change Lives (CTCL schools), that’s fine. It’s when the conversations have significantly more positive engagement about SHYMP than the CTCL (or public state options, or whatever options that are not viewed as “elite”) that I think is emblematic of the mindset I’m referring to.
I am 100% in on rewarding and acknowledging and praising folks exemplifying these values!
In case it is not clear, I am not against academic pursuits or intellectualism. When a kid decides to start studying advanced math because they think it’s fun, I think that’s cool. When a kid starts creating their own language because they think it’s cool, I think that’s awesome. If someone is interested in the poop of buffalo and what they can learn about Native American migrations because of that, I think it’s terrific.
I think it’s wonderful when people have intellectual interests, and I honestly wish that more people did. When I’m talking about academic elitism, I’m not referencing intellectual interests. I’m referring to the signaling of people extremely (overly?) interested in achieving outcomes that are very exclusive, that can also be achieved in less exclusive environments.
Nay in my little world. Most people don’t even know elite schools past Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford (football), and Cal Tech (Big Bang Theory).
In my world - from listening to those around me, not my views - the anger stems from the perception that they (and their spouse) have worked 40+ hours/week and can never get ahead. They will never even be able to fly their family anywhere for any kind of vacation. One repair will throw them into debt. And they look at others who don’t work and get (insert gripe of the day). Thanks to NAFTA all of our jobs left. Jobs are being outsourced. Decades later, we are still far behind. They look at people here illegally and think they are taking their jobs (not that they are ones they’d want, but I digress) and using up our resources. They get free healthcare while they pay hundreds of dollars a month with high deductibles. They are broke and our country is continually handling out $$$ to everyone else, but them. Transgender/women’s rights is trickier and probably belongs in the forum where I will not go. I’d put it secondary to those above.
So they are mad at whatever is doing the above to them, and for the moment, in their mind’s eye, that is a certain political party or the government in general, not because someone went to Harvard vs State U. I suppose you could say, however, that anyone who is “rich” (college educated) and supports these views doesn’t know (or care) what it’s like to be in their shoes. Right or wrong, that’s how I perceive their stance.
In the last month, I have noticed just how angry and aggressive every one seems to be. I first noticed it while driving, after having come back from Canada - where I was not tailgated once in over 1000 miles. Everyone seems to have a chip on their shoulder and looking for a fight about something. And it feels like everyone is out for themselves. But the weird part is that if someone in their circle needs something, they’d give the shirt off their back and all of their time to help. So, it’s not exactly that they are just selfish and self centered. It’s complicated.
My husband and his family are originally from the Soviet Union, and this is the attitude I have seen over the years with them and all of their circle of similar friends. It is though a completely different moral standard applies to how one treats immediate family and friends compared to the general public. It’s very different from how I was raised in 1960s/70s California to believe it’s important to be fair to everyone.
In the case of the Soviet Union I feel this attitude came about because life was hard with little possibility of being able to improve one’s lot, inequality was high, government was scary and corrupt, you were at the mercy of those in power and couldn’t depend on anyone but your immediate circle. So people ended up just not caring at all about people outside their circle, and on the other hand fiercely protecting those close to them that they could rely on.
I worry that as our government lurches towards the same direction, we may see similar degradation of historical US values of caring about fairness and equality and justice and so on, as applied to those outside our immediate circle.
Perhaps not to the same degree, but I think this has been true among some groups in the U.S. as well. Sometimes people will ask someone who has come from dire economic straits what happened to their money when times were more flush (and I’m not talking about celebrity levels of wealth), and it often comes back to the fact that they were helping out other community members in need. When someone in the community is having a particularly hard time, others in the community will do everything they can to help support that person. That results in the expectation that when that person is then in a place where they can help a different person who has fallen on hard times, that they will help as well. And the degree of being in a “better” place is the fact that they have two shirts and the other person has none, so they’ll give them a shirt.
There are groups in the U.S. who have felt that there’s little possibility to improve their lot, inequality is high, and that government is scary. I’m hoping that corruption and being at the mercy of those in power is not something that people in our country have to fear, though I admittedly have serious concerns at present, but that would belong in a different forum.
I think this goes back to @compmom’s mention of the “bubble.” Because even though I might not get the shirt off someone’s back as a stranger, if my vehicle broke down near them and was stranded, I know that many of these same people would stop and do everything they could to get me back on the road or to get me to shelter or food/drink, or would do whatever they could to help even if they didn’t know me from a hole in the wall. Kindness, generosity, and charity know no socioeconomic bounds.
That’s the difference I see with the former Soviet Union folks. They would not stop for you. (My husband would, but he’s been in the US since he was a teen.) Stopping to help a stranger is part of our traditional American values and I don’t believe it’s a universal human value.
I haven’t read any of the responses, but if that is the case at all, I think it is not everywhere, but only in some places. It seems that in many areas (and many people) really don’t think about more than their big state U and/or a handful of other colleges, and I don’t mean just the “prestigious ones.” In the northeast, and maybe California, some people may pay more attn. to SAT scores, and “name” colleges, for example, but I’m not saying they do that over the importance of kindness, etc. You can have both.
I would vote, Nay. While social division is a national issue, I would suggest that academic elitism is more of a regional (NE) issue.
Well sure, if anyone disses you for any reason, a natural response is to not not gonna think kindly about the dissers.
IMO, the disdain, such as it is, from the ‘academic elites’, which comprises many top government officials, is that they spends a lot of time telling teh un-elite how to live. (sure, some of it might even be good for them long-term, but that still doesn’t mean folks want to hear it; other parts of it just defy common sense*)
This loose correlation made me think - do we think the correlation has strengthened with jobs in finance that seem to focus on mathematics achievement instead of business connections? Could that shift have been what made resentment grow toward the eggheads who were otherwise not competitive for perceived prizes? There was also a thing in the 1990s or so where “engineers make good husbands” started to propel our beloved eggheads socially as well…?
Unfortunately, we do get it from both ends.
the name drop,