I have a theory percolating, and I would love to get the thoughts of other CC’ers on it.
I’ve had some conversations recently where we’ve discussed how some people have a major focus on impressing others via academic accomplishments (theirs or their child’s), such as GPA, standardized test scores, and the name of their school/alma mater, while behaviors that demonstrate other traits like kindness, humor, curiosity, helpfulness, etc. get relatively short shrift. Additionally, it’s not uncommon for posters on CC (or their families offline) to have strong feelings that only certain colleges are “worth it” and that all others are a disappointment.
In a world where only certain colleges are admired and others are viewed with varying levels of disdain (often in direct relationship with the school’s admittance rate), then I would suspect that those who don’t attend any college may feel an even greater level of disdain from the cohort of individuals focused on elite academic outcomes.
If individuals with little or no college education (or no college education from a sufficiently respected school) feel disdain directed toward them, are they not more likely to feel disdain and antagonistic toward those who disdain them? And then perhaps disdain toward academic elites then leads to seeking out alternative experts and disbelief of science and many of the other things that are showing up in our country right now.
As elite outcomes can only be achieved by a small minority of the population (in order to remain “elite”), the relationship between the elite and non-elite needs to be considered. Rarely do I hear of elite athletes who don’t think well of people who can’t dunk a basketball or throw a touchdown pass or do a back handspring on a balance beam. So it doesn’t seem as though there must be strife between the elite and non-elite in a category, but I think that there increasingly is a lot of strife between the academic elite and non-elite.
If this theory is true, what do we do? I think all people need to feel valued/respected and I think that the groups need to feel a sense of commonality. If people focus on how they value honesty, leadership, sacrifice, thoughtfulness, etc. then those are values that can be achieved no matter how academic or athletic or handy or artsy or musical one is. People can still be admired for their various talents (including academics), but that is not the bar by which all others are assessed.
IMO the problem happens when people who attended elite colleges, have a perfect GPA, etc. view those attributes as a major part of their life – setting them above those who did not have the same accomplishments. In fact, those accomplishments are but one small component of a person’s life – not nearly as important in the long run as being a good, respectful, kind. hard working, etc. person.
I was taught and have taught my kids to respect all honorable and hardworking people. We have never faced the issues noted above
In my neck of the woods, elite colleges are not “all that” to begin with. People still aspire to go to college or otherwise further their education in some way. I honestly don’t see a backlash against education or those with degrees. It seems to me that people around here are angry with those who amass wealth and look down on those who don’t have it. This is an historically unionized area, and people have wanted their kids to do better than they did. They don’t see the issue as an academic elite thing … they take issue with corporations enriching those at the top & shareholders at the expense of the workers.
I think this is absolutely true, but also feel like to discuss it, we veer into Politics Forum territory, as I think it has played a role in both recent voting patterns as well as certain rhetoric to stoke this division.
Problem is you are more likely to get paid for academic qualifications than you are for kindness. In addition, there is a perception in certain industries that you have to step on toes to rise to the top and that this is perfectly acceptable, reinforcing the idea that prestige and status outweigh kindness and compassion.
I thoroughly disagree with this notion and that is a large part of why I work in the nonprofit sector rather than in a corporate environment. But then I get paid a fraction of what I would in the corporate world. Many people are not willing and able to make that trade off.
Well, a reconfiguration of the political landscape and discourse would help - although I guess that’s really a “chicken or egg” conundrum. And, although I realize I will sound like a communist here, I do think some redistribution of resources is a necessary part of solving it. You can’t compensate high status CEOs with elite degrees with millions of dollars while paying service workers (including those such as home aids, daycare workers, etc whose jobs are predicated on kindness and compassion) minimum wage and not expect some bitterness. Compensate kindness and maybe you’ll see change. But I don’t see that happening in our current political and economic system.
My firsthand experience with talented athletes has been a real mixed bag. Some have been humble and kind, while some have used their athletic talent to boost their social status and have been terrible bullies. Not long ago I attended an alumni awards banquet at my old high school (as a guest, not an awardee) and there were 2 athletes being honored. One was a good friend of mine and is entirely kind and humble about her athletic talent and always was. The other was a guy who went on to be a professional athlete, and I was able to verify that he is as much of a jerk now as he was 30 years ago.
I think “academic elites” come across as a little obnixious in the online world but I seldem see that behavior in real life. In addition, they should be proud of their accomplishments just as long as they don’t perceive themselves above others just for that access or accomplishment. Do you really think they do? That world has shrunk a LOT over the past couple of decades as we see SEC school CEOs of major corps and Ivy attorneys still looking for work. I also think political groups like to use the chasm as a great divide when it really is not. I’m not sure if I actually addressed what you were asking so I’ll say it using your words - no, I don’t think either side has disdain for the other. Now if you are talking about entertainment folks - yeah, they definitely appear to have a hiarchy to me.
This conversation has reminded me of something I hadn’t thought about in ages. Years ago, being a graduate of my alma mater prompted interesting reactions from coworkers. It was not an elite school, but it was known in the industry in which I worked as being a feeder school for up-and-comers. When people found out someone was a graduate of this school, they often made comments that indicated that they thought the grad got special treatment from upper management. I just rolled my eyes and went about my business if someone said something to me. I don’t think that the school inspires the same response now. I think that people want to blame others sometimes, and they will reach for the easy reason.
The original thesis can only be true if you ignore the elite athletes who engage in sexual abuse, are involved in Ponzi schemes, etc. In other words… taking advantage of people they disdain.
Or the rock/rap/popular musicians and celebrities (most of whom are not highly educated) who trash hotel rooms or behave in a way that shows complete disregard for the cleaners, security guards, law enforcement, etc.
Our culture has produced tons of examples of “elites” without elite education who demonstrate their disdain for the non-elites by their reprehensible behavior.
I don’t deny that there are jerks out there of all stripes. There are jerk athletes, jerk musicians, jerk actors, etc. And there are definitely regular Joes and Janes who are jerks, too, with no affiliation with anything elite. (And feel free to mentally replace the word jerk with something stronger.)
But to me there is a difference in someone being a general jerk in all areas of life, vs. being a jerk in the area where one is elite. To move it to something slightly different, imagine someone who is very musically inclined. If they’re only interested in talking to, engaging with, and developing friendships with other musicians, and they look down upon anyone who cannot play music, that’s the disdain that I’m talking about. They don’t need to be doing all sorts of illegal or immoral things for them to still be showing their disdain toward nonmusical folk.
It would be entirely natural for the musical person to have a higher percentage of friends who are also musically inclined as that’s a common interest and that is often the type of people they are surrounded with. But for them to be entirely exclusive to musical folk might be a clue. Or if they were having a conversation about what was the best hair band of the 80s, would they ignore or snicker at the opinions of a person who couldn’t play music, or would they listen and give that person’s thoughts a fair listen?
I have 2 friends who work on the business side of professional athletics and most of the athletes indeed maintain friendships mostly with other athletes. The kids who got D-1 scholarships sometiMrs looked down on division 3 athletes My brother in law plays for a symphony orchestra and his friend group almost all muciscians. And there is unquestionable elitism with people in his industry only finding him worthy when he went from a from a minor market orchestra to one of the big city orchestra. Bottom line is that there is elitism in area other than academics.
The biggest difference that leads to resentment from the non-elite side is when there’s a feeling that selection for the “elite” is not based on merit but on other attributes (connections, legacy, race, donations, etc). Add to that students being told “you can anything you want to be, if you work hard” then being disappointed (usually at the end of high school) when they find out they aren’t that academically elite after all. That realization tends to happen a lot sooner in sports, is usually acknowledged to be merit-based, and coaches are typically prepared to say “you aren’t good enough to succeed at the next level”.
That resentment is made worse when the elite then continue to send the message (through Hollywood films, TV, newspapers etc) that the path to respect in society is to do what they did (leave your hometown, go to a prestigious college and move to the big city to work).
And often those elites continue to manipulate the system to their own advantage even when they pretend to be acting altruistically (“don’t destroy the environment by building lots of new housing, etc”) or they try to abolish criteria that are regarded as more merit-based by non-elites (eg test-based admissions for high school or college, or Proposition 209 in California).
Academic elites avoided the draft for the Vietnam war, yet those not staying in college or marrying and having kids did not avoid the draft.
Academic elites promoted free trade which led to loss of jobs for non academic elites.
During the covid pandemic, academic elites mandated shut downs of places where people gather, schools, restaurants, churches, leading to job loss and depression and suicide. Yet some wealthy politicians broke their own rules and partied on ( such as in UK or California).
Over time, academic elites in federal government passed various laws promoting social change or civil and voting rights;
economic change related to free trade and off shoring jobs in textiles, manufacturing, and call centers;
immigration change led to increase of foreigners competing for non elite jobs.(Programs like H1B allowing tech employers to fire American workers and replace with foreign workers.)
The war on terror which has helped create $36 trillion national debt;
Acdemic elites in private sector have promoted financial policies that allow concentration of wealth by those academic elites manipulating markets and circumventing regulation;
Loss of affordable entry level housing for purchase tied to local wages contributes to resentment against big government, big finance, big tech.
Tech elites now threaten non elites with creation of AI and robots that threaten entry level jobs and even mid level management jobs.
I would go even further for @kelsmom 's point. I think that the anti-intellectual-elite thing is a made-up movement that got traction with [some] people, but that it was fomented by extremely wealthy people who want to distract from their theft/unfair advantages.
Remember when Trump would refer to the “intellectual elite” and then say, “I don’t even think they’re elite; you’re elite” to his base? This is what I’m getting at.
Also, I don’t think we can ignore the seams of antisemitism and anti-Asian racism that underlie a lot of the anti-intellectual-elite business.
Sports are where merit / achievement can be more obvious, but there can also be subjective coaches’ decisions that may be seen as unfairly based on something else.
I think that there have always been people focused on elite education.
But I’m annoyed that certain elements of society and the media seem to be pushing the concept that anyone who is college educated, living in a large city/ suburbs and holds certain political views is somehow “elite”. Ironically many of the people who back this are people who are truly elite- very wealthy, degrees from certain schools, sometimes generational wealth, etc.
What do you mean by “academic elites promoted free trade…loss of jobs”? I would have said the academic elites in the relevant era were the “eggheads” sitting in Bell Labs, and that the CEOs and other wealth elites were the job enders.
During the early part of the pandemic (the pandemic is still in progress), there were no meaningful shut-downs in the United States. There is also no evidence of increased depression, but there is evidence of formerly-bullied and minority students, particularly LGBTQ students, being much less likely to be depressed/bullied during remote school. Wealthy politicians “partying on” were again, no one’s idea of intellectual elite.
Not clear where the war on terror is connected to academics, either. Mostly universities have harbored opposition views on war.
Yes, that marketing is redefining the resented “elite” away from the actual elite who make the policies that many people find to be to their disadvantage.
And many other kinds of bigotry… The goal is to keep the actual non-elites fighting each other so that the actual elites can continue redistributing the economy more to their own benefit.
“And many other kinds of bigotry… The goal is to keep the actual non-elites fighting each other so that the actual elites can continue redistributing the economy more to their own benefit.”
Well, yes, but I think we run the risk of “all lives matter”-ing this if we don’t call out the fact that Jewish and Asian students often get the hate in this specific context.
However - there are racist dog whistles about “globalists” and “grinders” that mean very specific groups of people often seen as the academic elite. The idea of “holistic” applications originally came about because too many Jewish students were getting in at elite universities, and the bias hasn’t gone away. A lot of the “race to nowhere” junk is directed at Asian students who are stereotyped as one-dimensional grinds who aren’t as well-rounded as White students.
What you are describing is discrimination against these groups by the academic elite. It’s completely backwards to suggest that the Jewish and Asian students who are being discriminated against (by being denied places at elite universities, and today by pervasive anti-semitism at those universities) are “often seen as the academic elite”.
I know people who went to elite colleges or work in elite jobs and don’t think I have observed any disdain. (I have observed that some live in a sort of bubble…)
I think this question is more complex. How much social division is from people feeling less than rather than the elite actually thinking they are “less than.” Granted, we had Hilary’s “deplorables,”
Not all people with degrees from top schools are “elite.” Many go on full financial aid, and some choose professions that are not well-paid.
I would focus less on the fact that people have gone to Ivies or make a lot of money or on the issue of disdain. I think it is more a matter of that “bubble…” society being sort of segmented with people at the “top” just not having much exposure to people on the “bottom” or even the “middle.” Not disdain, just lack of understanding.
And from those who didn’t attend college or attended a lesser known college, community college, trade school, there may be resentment that is also fueling divisions, even when they have never run into any disdain from others.