Young homeschooler w college credits. Can she get in?

Colleges & Universities California Institute of Technology
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<p>I have a question somewhat related to the no ECs question.</p>

<p>My daughter is 15 and is a very strong math and science student. I think she could do very well at CalTech (I have my PhD in ME from MIT, was a National Science Foundation Fellow, straight A’s as and undergrad and at MIT, etc.) Two years ago, my daughter had the highest composite score on the SAT among the 40,000 or so 7th graders in the US who took the SAT through the Johns Hopkins talent search program (790 M/730 V), and more recently she has taken the newer SAT and improved her two verbal scores to 750 and 760. She also had 800/800 on SAT-II Math IIC and Chemistry. She has taken Calculus 2, Chemistry I with Lab, Chemistry 2 with Lab, Physics 1 and 2 (w Calculus) with Lab, and will be taking Organic Chemistry I w lab, Computer Science, & Biology w lab. in the fall. All of these courses have been taken at a local state university. Her worst score on any exam in any course so far has been 99/100, and in her chemistry courses they had standard ACS exams, on which she had perfect scores. It probably doesn’t matter much at Caltech, but last year she took the PSAT (when she was 14) and had an 80/75/75 (almost perfect predictor for her SAT) and will likely be a National Merit Finalist. She is working on a project with me this summer related to rehabilitation engineering (her grandfather had a tragic accident, near paraplegic and is trying to regain the ability to walk), but she is only getting started on that.</p>

<p>Her greatest strength is that she is simply dissatisfied if she does not completely understand concepts from their fundamentals. Although she reads quite a bit, she is primarily interested in science and is fairly sure she wants to major in chemistry or physics. She has been very fortunate so far in that the third tier university near our home has some pretty good teachers (Chem prof has PhD from Penn, Calc prof is from Yale, Computer Science prof is from MIT, etc.). I am sure they were not at the top of their classes, and they will never win a Nobel prize, but they understand the material well enough for her. The college’s physics is very low quality (they use the Halliday and Resnick physics book I used as an undergrad). I would be very surprised if she did not get recommendations from these profs that she is one of the most mature and brightest students they have ever encountered.</p>

<p>In terms of ECs, she has been involved in piano for about 10 years, practicing about 2 hours/day (and won or placed in some significant competitions in our area, where piano is very competitive) and has been quite involved in church youth group. She played soccer until about a year ago when due to the college class schedule she really had not enough time. She has been homeschooled since kindergarten, so she doesn’t really have any grades other than the SATs and the college classes (all A’s). She has simply outgrown my resources.</p>

<p>I am actually an alumni interviewer for MIT, but I think she would fit in better at Caltech. She is very focused, and although she likes to read, she has no burning desire to take many non-science courses (she can write well enough to do OK, though). She is leaning toward medical school, but really likes chemistry and physics.</p>

<p>My daughter has not participated in any math or science competitions, but I am confident that her understanding of the fundamentals is quite excellent. If she were to go to CalTech, she would certainly expect to repeat physics, but I actually do not think her understanding is that bad. I saw another posting related to the exam CalTech offers for potential transfer students. Since she has had a number of college courses, is there anyway that she could take the transfer exam as an indicator of the strength of her understanding? She would not expect to enter as a transfer student.</p>

<p>Given the timing, are there any exams or competitions that she could still enter that would provide Caltech with info that she is an excellent student who simply has not done much research yet? (the rehabilitation project will likely make significant progress this fall, but she cannot claim to have completed much yet).</p>

<p>Any advice would be appreciated.</p>

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<p>Why do I feel uncomfortable after reading this father’s post?</p>

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<p>Usually someone as good in math has learned about competitions. Just reading threads would clue someone in as to how to arrange to take some of them. Also, D is doing research during summer at local colleges. You might also ask, why is dad posting? I suspect he’s getting into the swing of admissions and is gathering info. She’ll be in 10th grade, so there is time yet.</p>

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<p>for info on math competitions:
<a href=“http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5B/url%5D”>www.artofproblemsolving.com</a></p>

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<p>Sounds pretty much like my deal. I was homeschooled by Ph.D parents, took college classes when we ran out of experiments the basement lab could handle (my physics prof got his Ph.D at Princeton and we used Halliday and Resnick too), maxed out most of the usual standardized tests, and read a ridiculous amount. The most important thing I can say to you is: if you think you understand the fundamentals of something, but haven’t done any work in that area, you will quickly find out how wrong you are. Doing science/engineering fair projects for several years was as necessary to developing my skills as any amount of reading about the “fundamentals”, and I think it was a major factor in my admission. If your daughter is Caltech material, sweeping a category at the local ISEF feeder fair should be both easy and fun, and actually going to the ISEF shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Doing the ACS Chemistry Olympiad will look good, and of course, if she can find some real research outside the home, go for it. </p>

<p>Also, a big part of homeschooling is knowing when to cut the cord and shove your kid out of your house by herself to deal with real people. College age is too late. If she can find a researcher to work with, that’s good. If not, I recommend she get a job, and make sure she has friends, autonomy, and mobility. Otherwise, and I speak from harsh personal experience, homeschooled kids tend to grow up real weird, and not a good kind of weird. They end up looking smart and mature when it comes to something they already know but they will break like a turtle under a steamroller when outside their comfort zones. You don’t want that.</p>

<p>My AIM handle is SteelPangolin, and if you pass that on to your daughter, I can relate in great detail exactly how going through the whole college process was for me as a homeschooler. She might find it reassuring.</p>

<p>Good luck to you.</p>

6

<p>Hi pafather. Thanks for asking some excellent questions.</p>

<p>Your daughter sounds very hardcore. I’d be surprised if she didn’t get in, since she is obviously very bright and Caltech still values raw brains very very highly.</p>

<p>As SteelPangolin suggests, if there is time (is she applying THIS fall?) get her into the local ISEF fair. Also, we don’t view having entered the research in a big competition as a prerequisite. If she is applying to soon to enter it into anything like that, still include a real (i.e. serious) writeup of the research. Aim for something like a 20-page summary of the work, so that it’s clear what it’s intellectual content is, and follow the style of the top field journals. Professors and quite good students read the files, so they can tell flaky work from serious work.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.its.caltech.edu/~tmu/ph1a/problems.htm[/url]”>http://www.its.caltech.edu/~tmu/ph1a/problems.htm&lt;/a&gt; has the quiz and final problems from our mechanics course. These closely resemble any exams we give to students to test out of stuff. <a href=“http://www.its.caltech.edu/~phys1/[/url]”>http://www.its.caltech.edu/~phys1/&lt;/a&gt; has corresponding stuff from E&M and the like.</p>

<p>If your daugher is applying this coming cycle, my personal feeling from having served on the admissions committee at Caltech is that another year of research-oriented study (aiming for Intel and Westinghouse finals) would make her a no-brainer winner for our top Axline (full merit) scholarship. Applying now she’d be in that ballpark, maybe, but probably not. So another year would do her good, since she’s so young.</p>

<p>Anyway, it sounds like this is one of those nice cases where the kid wants the intellectual achievement even more than their parents want it for them, so congratulations. Please feel free to ask more questions as they come up.</p>

7

<p>Thanks everyone for your information. I really appreciate it. </p>

<p>Since my daughter is young, I had assumed that she would be living with us and just doing her undergrad at the university near our home (she could finish BS in chemistry by spring of 2008), and then going off to grad school or med school somewhere else. The university has actually been fairly successful at placing some students in excellent chemistry grad schools and some decent medical schools. The physics department is not very strong though.</p>

<p>I have lately been thinking about the tradeoffs for my daughter between finishing college young and with zero debt, compared to being around a bunch of students who are similar or much brighter than she is (I have no unrealistic ideas that my daughter would necessarily be anything special, or even above average, at CalTech), which would be a big plus. I only have finite resources. If she stays local, then I could help financially with med school. If she were to go to a school like CalTech, we would likely not receive much aid and would not be able to help her at all with med school. My heart says to send her to the best school she can get into, but my mind says that I also need to consider that graduating med school young and with no debt would give her so many more options in life.</p>

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<p>By the way MAGD, I understand the response: “Why do I feel uncomfortable after reading this father’s post?” </p>

<p>I knew there might be such responses, but nevertheless I really wanted to get some info about CalTech. If I came across as arrogant or obnoxious, I apologize. I only listed the various stats so I could get accurate info. I am definitely not the type of dad who goes around publicly bragging or even mentioning to anyone I know what my daughter’s accomplishments are.</p>

<p>Last year when I was an alumni representative at a presentation for potential MIT undergrads, a father of one child stood up and said, “My son is going to be graduating high school a year early and has taken the most advanced math and science classes the high school offers, all with top grades. How will MIT view this?” I seemed to sense some of the parents feeling badly that THEIR children had not graduated early, or possibly the father who asked the question HOPING that others would feel this way (the TONE of the questioner seemed to convey this). Much relief was in the room, along with one very disappointed dad, when the MIT admissions representative replied: “I am sure MIT will not HOLD IT AGAINST YOUR SON if he only has three years of high school courses, as opposed to four, as long as he has taken the most advanced courses available” (It reminded me of Ronald Reagan’s famous reply at the presidential debate when asked about his age). That is why I submitted this post. I am sure that every year there are many, many brighter applicants to CalTech than my daughter. I do not view being young as an asset in itself. I genuinely wanted to get a feel for how CalTech might view such a situation. I would guess their position would not be that different from MIT.</p>

<p>I have to admit that when I was a student or faculty member, I was always annoyed by the kid who would stand up and make a fairly irrelevant comment just trying to show off such as, “Professor, isn’t it true that if you extend this theory you get the following? …” The student SEEMED to be hoping for the following response: “Why, you must have been reading ahead, my little genius, haven’t you?” As a student, I just rolled my eyes. As a lecturer, I would just say, “Yes.” Then after class, I would look for the student to pursue the matter if he/she was really interested (because there was always the possibility that a student would have independently figured out the next logical progression on his own and was genuinely curious).</p>

<p>So again, if I came across as arrogant or obnoxious, I apologize.</p>

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<p>I would recommend taking courses at the local college while remaining technically a high schooler. That should keep her challenged and engaged and possible expose her to some research opportunities. Applying to colleges in another year or two she will be a much stronger candidate and may have merit or scholarship money, or may be able to place out of enough stuff to shorten her time spent in college if the cost is a major issue. I personally think it would be much more stimulating for a smart kid to attend the very best school they can and be surrounded with other similarly talented people rather than attend Generic U and figure you’ll make it up in grad or professional school. (grad students normally get funding and med students normally get loans, so I wouldn’t worry too much about financing her education beyond college.)</p>

<p>Here’s a recent thread discussing going off to college early:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=80068[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=80068&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Yeesh. I understand you want to provide for your daughter, but keeping her tethered all the way through med school is a sure recipe for disaster, especially if she’d be attending a local college before reaching the usual college age. Running this plan WILL result in her being put in an environment where she’s permanently the “weird kid” and carrying a significant stigma. It will not be fun for her. College should not be like boot camp.</p>

<p>Take the time between now and when she would normally enter college as an opportunity for her to do the research-oriented study that Ben and I are recommending. That way, not only will she enter college at the normal age, but she’ll be very well prepared when she does and will be able to get into a school like Caltech. Don’t worry about her being overwhelmed by the smart kids: although some of us are more equal than others, we’re all really nice, and all of us were smart enough to get into Caltech in the first place. It’s a great environment.</p>

<p>As far as finaid goes, top-tier schools work a little differently from the bulk of the schools you might read about in *College Financial Planning for Dummies<a href=“my%20parents%20were%20surprised%20by%20this”>/i</a>. If a top-tier school likes a candidate enough to accept her, it will make it possible for that candidate to attend by awarding a need-based package. Caltech will not admit your daughter and then make it financially hard for her to attend. A lot of Techers have big finaid packages with no loans; I’m one of them. (The ones who do are comforted by the high-paying jobs that await the industrious Tech graduate.) Merit money is strictly extra tinfoil on the helmet and is awarded to reward the very best candidates for not choosing other schools. The Axline scholarship is a good example of merit money: Ben has one and I don’t, because Ben did some cool stuff at Princeton and probably has a work ethic, whereas I am a slacker who spends his spare time playing Starcraft and talking smack to Linux users.</p>

<p>So hark ye well! Send the girl to a good school when she’s ready. It looks like she’d have a solid chance here.</p>

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<p>SteelPangolin’s last post is mostly right on the money save for his failure to note the gratuitous drug use that must have been prevalent on the Admissions Committee in 2002-03 to cause my admission or anything else related to my application at Caltech.</p>

<p>pafather, your modesty regarding your daughter – especially the statement that you don’t expect her to be automatically at the top at Caltech – is refreshing. It’s pretty annoying when parents seemingly expect their kids to be one of the top applicants/students at Caltech/MIT/wherever, get a merit scholarship, etc. Then one gets kids who are disappointed because they didn’t win the top merit money. This seems quite silly, because after all they have still won a prize that most could never aspire to.</p>

<p>You never did tell us, though, is she applying to college this year? And have you thought about waiting a year? SteelPangolin is right that money may be a lot less of an issue than you think, both due to merit scholarships and full financial aid. It never hurts to try, but your chances would be improved by waiting a year.</p>

<p>I have to run off in a few seconds, but I thought I’d offer one more thought… in my years at Caltech and at home before I left for college, I saw two kinds of kids with incredibly strong/homeschool backgrounds. Type A stays at a nearby college, being of course one of the best kids the school has ever seen, and usually gets into a top-notch graduate school. It would be a lie to say many of them lose out in a big way academically. But the kids who are two or three years ahead of their peers, and then come to Caltech (I say especially Caltech because of its incredible wealth of undergraduate research opportunities) are treated like research scholars while also getting arguably the most rigorous math/science education available in America. The connections they make with world-famous professors (who often become lifelong mentors and advocates) you couldn’t buy for any price or get virtually anywhere else.</p>

<p>So as I view it, your daughter has built up a lot of intellectual capital by being so far ahead. You can spend it on a “get out of college quick” card, or you can spend it on Caltech (spending intellectual capital does not necessarily mean real money). And while it may not seem like it now, the Caltech education will probably INCREASE the gap between your daughter and the rest of her academic generation, where the nearby-college option will probably maintain or shrink it slightly. That’s just my gut feeling.</p>