Nothing “forces” anyone to use porn. That just strikes me as a weird excuse.
And not wanting to have a bf, cohabit or marry, doesn’t mean absolute abstinence.
@doschicos I have seen a few cases of porn-related ED, ie. it can’t happen with an actual real-life partners, in young men over the years (friends who’ve opened up about having to seek therapy). Sometimes I wonder where does society go with that?
Idk about that. My eldest daughter used to go to a few music festivals (with a variety of genres) that had to be 75% young women. She sent a snap to me once and I said “where are all the guys?”
“Maybe playing video games?” she replied.
My dudes. TRY.
"Let me explain it in a slightly different way. I think a lot of women now either have no desire for a bf/cohabitation/marriage or such high standards it excludes most of the potential dating pool. "
Lot of young women maybe aren’t in a rush to get married early or at all but I haven’t seen any proof that they don’t want relationships at all.
“which forces those men to use porn as a substitute.”
That porn watching starts way younger than most males are even contemplating marriage. Maybe if they stopped watching so much, they’d have a better chance. I think you have it backwards. Lots of men are addicted to it and won’t stop even when in a relationship where they are having/can have sex. It’s a big problem, IMO.
“I have seen a few cases of porn-related ED, ie. it can’t happen with an actual real-life partners, in young men over the years (friends who’ve opened up about having to seek therapy). Sometimes I wonder where does society go with that?”
@CCtoAlaska Yes, I think that is a definite problem. And not uncommon these days. Think of what is often portrayed in porn. It’s not “normal” and healthy.
I wouldn’t want my kiddos to pursue or encourage a relationship with a guy into porn so much he’s using it as a regular outlet and it affects his perspective. So this “choice” is not getting them what they may otherwise want. It can be very off-putting, too. Don’t blame women.
@lookingforward for me it’s a matter of ethics. You have guys buying fair trade coffee at a 150% markup arguing against global economic exploitation who are very vocal in their belief in basic, fundamental human rights for all people. And then they turn on to the dirtiest, most exploitative industry that exists. There is zero consciousness around the fact that these are real people behind the camera which really bothers me. And then there is always the gross factor, as you note.
If young folks want a life partner, it is easier today than ever before with all the dating websites. Most of the young people on this site are very smart, and have a lot of ambition and persistence with regard to school and career. If they are willing to spend the same focused time on their personal lives, they should be able to find a romantic match.
They may not be able to find a pornography site fantasy partner. Or a Romcom McDreamy. Because that’s fiction, not real life. But you can’t convince me a reasonably nice person can’t find another reasonably nice person, if they approach it in the same way they do their college and job searches.
Some women may be more picky these days. When you can earn your own money and support yourself, you can afford to be picky. Men who want to be with type A, high achieving women may have to prioritize her interests and goals to attract this type.
This incel idea, in this country, that some men are shut out from romance and sex is nonsense. They may have to work harder and smarter than in previous generations to find very accomplished partners, but they can do it if they make it a priority. Not being able to approach women on the street isn’t the problem here.
I respectively disagree. Single sex (no partner, masturbating) is a lot easier than a relationship.
With modern porn, it’s easily accessible, tailored to one’s schedule & demands, offers near endless variety, and is, obviously, a movie or even live with interaction — not a worn out paper Playboy magazine.
That’s…a problem.
Relationships are work. Usually a person feels vulnerable at times and that can be uncomfortable. There are disagreements. Women are, hopefully, expecting their partners to care about their sexual pleasure & satisfaction, requiring “more” of men than perhaps was expected in times past.
To my thinking, it’s sadly understandable why some men are opting out of pursuing serious intimate relationships in favor of a mostly solo sex life.
^A significant number of women are also consumers of pornography. Let’s not be sexist here.
I didn’t mean to imply that opting out of relationships, and/or porn consumption, was for men only. Of course not.
Just replying to a previous post, which I took to be about men.
Here would be a good social experiment. Create an average man profile and an average woman profile on one of those dating sites. Then, wait to see which profile gets messaged more. I bet you would get a 20 to 1 ratio.
“I bet you would get a 20 to 1 ratio.”
You definitely would but thats for various reasons: 1) more men use the platforms than females do and 2) men will message pretty much anyone on those sites as the article linked references and as you can read elsewhere as well.
However, online dating sites aren’t the only (or IMO the best) ways to meet potential mates.
As the saying goes, ducks are abundant and low value. You really don’t want to be on the receiving end of the vast majority of those messages.
Wow, you’re taking an idealist’s perspective. Most people out there do fall into a range of normal or average (pick a word.) And most of those average sorts who want a relatioship find their matches, whatever resources they use. Look around. It’s not that the only people in relationships are perfect prototypes.
And too often, those seeking the perfect partner aren’t so perfect, themselves. Many are unrealistically trying to fill their own void. That’s fantasy.
Now, this thread shouldn’t digress to who’s to blame, men or women. Let’s watch out for whom we denigrate. It leads to all sorts of bold accusations.
.
1)More men using those platforms would be an indication more men want a girlfriend than women want boyfriends, which would affirm my earlier point about many women not being interested in a relationship.
2) This is what I said earlier about women being more selective. If women want to wait around for the perfect guy, it should be no surprise a growing percentage of the population is single.
Ack, we’re all experts. More men may simply reflect that more men will turn to an online service.
My post about idealistic, btw, was to Roethlisburger. A few posted in between.
Oddly, this discussion has become a mirror of college admissions discussions. This assumpton one side must be more disadvantaged or have a harder row to hoe. And all the emphasis on “perfect.”
The problem with your premise is assuming that all those guys actually want relationships.
You also need to fact risk into the equation. Even though social mores have started to change whereby women are more likely to use those sites, a) not all women feel confident doing so and b) women have/tend to be more cautious.
It’s not as clear cut as you want it to be.
Assuming a young man gets no interest on any dating site, he can: try the meet up site and get involved in real world activities to meet others with similar interests, or ask friends and family to arrange meetings. I know two. young couples who met through their parents, another through an on-line bridge group, another through a hiking group.
If someone, regardless of gender, is seriously prioritizing finding a romantic partner, at the same time as being in school or working, how much time is left for pornography? There are lots of ways to meet potential mates on-line or out in the real world, (through organized activities) but porn will pretty much be a waste of time if the real goal is a life mate. imho
Spending large amounts of limited free time on pornography sites or online commiserating with others in the same boat seems unproductive and counter-intuitive to me… if the individual wants a partner.
“Men who want to be with type A, high achieving women may have to prioritize her interests and goals to attract this type.”
The market works in the opposite direction. Women get less attention from men as they move up the ladder of education, career, and financial achievement.
If women want to have children with a man who will shoulder 50% of the emotional and responsibility burden, that is a long, hard search, and most of them will not be successful.
I read the Atlantic article with a lot of interest.
My kids seem to have dodged the bullet somewhat. (In terms of relationships. I have no idea – and don’t really want any idea – how that translates into sex frequency.) Both got married within the last year and a half, one to a college friend (although their official romantic involvement didn’t begin until almost two years after their graduation), and the other to a person met through a mass-market online dating site when the couple were both about 27.
I had a couple of thoughts reading the piece. First, college and graduate school are still places where lots of people find romantic partners, but I think there is a fair amount of social pressure now on students not to couple up, for fear that it will distract them from their studies and interfere with establishing their brilliant careers. And that’s right: Romantic involvement, successful or not, requires energy, time, and compromises, all of which may affect the achievement of other goals. If you get absolutist about it – nothing should get in the way of X! – then there’s little or no hope for real romantic engagement. And increasingly, I think young adults get the message that they ought to be absolutist about their careers, at least until that mythical point when they are “established.”
Second (and related): Meeting people on an uncurated basis is a huge, huge time suck. Getting to know people better when you already know them some and know your shared interests (and maybe shared attraction) takes a ton of time. Starting at 0, or close to it, which is essentially where you are with even the best dating services, represents a geometric (if not exponential) increase in the time and effort it takes to get to the point where you can start thinking about the really important choices. Once upon a time, I asked my daughter how she would go about meeting people if she were looking for a potential romantic involvement. (It turned out at the time she was already involved with her future spouse, but she hadn’t chosen to let me in on that bit of information yet.) She said, “With the online services, given my age and where I live [Brooklyn], the only limit on meeting basically appropriate people is the amount of time I am willing to devote to it. But it takes an incredible amount of time, and it can get really exhausting.” Each actual date represents hours and hours of “work” in a short time-frame, both to set it up and to do it, and it can take quite a few dates to identify someone with whom it makes sense even to think about having a relationship. The more traditional ways of meeting people all function as shortcuts to that process.