Your child should consider an LAC.

Parents Forum
21

That is mostly correct with respect to engineering, though a few LACs do offer engineering natively. But the commonly-marketed 3+2 programs are very rarely completed by transferring to the “2” school – the student may not pass the admission gate for transfer, may not be able to afford the extra year of school (or if the “2” school gives worse financial aid), and/or may not want to transfer from the LAC to a big “2” school that s/he did not want in the first place.

However, pre-med and pre-law students can complete their undergraduate degrees at any reasonable college (LAC or otherwise). There is no particular reason why being pre-med or pre-law is necessarily worse or better at a LAC than at a non-LAC school (though there may be school-specific factors to consider, like the level of grade inflation or how much competition there is from other pre-med or pre-law students there).

22

Back in the late 1980s when my spouse and I chose our colleges, both of which are now on all the top 25 LAC lists, no one we knew ever used the term “LAC.” We just thought of them as small colleges.

I never saw the abbreviation LAC before reading College Confidential!

Small vs. big is really what people mostly mean nowadays when they use that term. Princeton and Johns Hopkins and other similar colleges grouped with the national universities are really also liberal arts colleges— places where the majority of majors are in the liberal arts (vs. pre-professional majors) and where intellectualism thrives. It is interesting how one magazine, US News, really popularized a terminology. LAC now mostly means the colleges on the US News National Liberal Arts College list, as opposed to the colleges on the US News National Universities list.

Although, interestingly, it is sometimes used to include other smallish colleges. Interestingly, I heave heard people call SUNY Geneseo a LAC, yet its population size is similar to Tufts or Princeton (all have 5000 something undergrads) and people here usually do not call those LACs. When people use it for Geneseo, they are contrasting Geneseo, a mid-sized college, to Binghamton and Stony Brook and the other larger SUNY’s.

23

“LAC”, as commonly used here, typically denotes an undergraduate focus with limited or no graduate programs, and an intention to keep class sizes small at all levels (including frosh/soph level courses). That does not appear to match Princeton or JHU.

Note that some of the biggest state universities have a majority of undergraduate students in liberal arts majors. The tendency of students to choose liberal arts majors versus pre-professional majors appears to be mostly related to selectivity.

24

Real LAC’s were not an option for either of my kids who were engineering and nursing students. But for kids who are pursuing a liberal arts major they do have advantages.

25

I agree very much. Smaller schools can offer very good undergraduate education, with advantages of a smaller campus and smaller classes.

My youngest is attending a small university in Canada – basically the Canadian equivalent of a LAC. It has been a great experience for her and is a great fit. Classes are smaller than at a large school, and are taught by full professors. She gets to know her professors. The professors are top quality (this last point would of course be true at most large and small schools). We see her smiling a lot, and her grades are great.

There are some limitations to LACs and small schools. My oldest graduated from a larger university, and there are some resources and some majors that she took advantage of that would not be offered in a smaller school. Nursing, engineering, and cows come to mind as three examples of things that are missing from most small schools.

However, as others have said everyone is aware of the existence of large universities. The smaller schools are often overlooked.

Looking at your points from the OP:

  1. Small classes. Absolutely.
  2. Access to professors. Yes again.
  3. Opportunities: DD and her boyfriend are both looking at great internships for this upcoming summer.
  4. Community: Yes again. She sees the same people often enough to get to know them.
  5. Great education: Yes, also true at larger schools, but the small class sizes are a big plus. Skipping a couple:
  6. Grad school: The school where my daughter attends regularly sends the top students to very well ranked, well known graduate schools. This is of course true of many small schools.
  7. Cost: Both daughters were offered pretty good merit scholarships at small schools, which made them either cost-competitive or better.

I didn’t know whether to click “agree”, “like”, or “helpful” on the OP, since all apply!

26

What I like about LACS is that what you do doesn’t define you. You don’t have “try on different personas” to do different things. You aren’t known as “a soccer player” or " an acapella singer". You are known as Joe. Joe plays soccer and sings. But Joe is always first and foremost Joe. Not to say that some kids don’t achieve this in other environments, but LACS excel at enabling this.

27

I toured a few dozen LACs with my first two kids. My third is focussed on large universities. One things we’ve been hearing on tours is that as an out of stater she needs to join a sorority because otherwise it can be hard to find her group. That’s something that surprised me, as I’d never heard that at any of the LACs.

28

Another vote for LAC’s! My older son graduated from a very tiny one and was afforded SO many opportunities that he would not have been given at a larger university where he would be just another face in the crowd. I attended a large uni, which I loved, but let me tell you, the experience is WAY different at a small LAC. The professors know you personally and are very involved with your success. I’m pretty sure my profs at my college had no idea who I was, unless I needed to meet with them for some reason, since their class had about 500 people in it. But that was fine with me because it made up for that in other ways.

My kids, on the other hand, need more one on one involvement with their profs so LAC’s are perfect for them. They do much better in small environments. I can’t see either of them hanging out at a huge frat party on a football Saturday.

29

@Lindagaf I am so happy to hear how well your daughter is doing… that’s fabulous!!

My daughter spent the weekend with her cousin at a LAC, and she also visited a few. I don’t think you are looking at these schools through rose colored glasses at all… I think they have a lot to offer. Our daughter chose not to apply… for whatever reason these schools were not for her. One school we looked at had some classes with 15 students and they sat around a table. She loved it… loves engaging in class discussions. At the end of the day, however, she chose not to apply. She made the right decision…for her.

I am so happy to hear your great news, and I agree that LACs can be a great choice…

30

I agree that LAC offer a different experience than large universities. I also agree that more students should have LACs on their lists. I also think that they aren’t for all students. My kids all wanted something other than a HUGE university, but only one wound up at a LAC.

My oldest graduated from Case Western, a smallish university. He really wanted something smaller than our (huge) state universities here in FL and applied to both LACs and small universities. He was very happy with his experience at Case and many of the reasons he liked it mirror the original post in this thread. He had small classes, good relationships with professors, good internship opportunities, good access to on campus jobs, a good education, good campus community and other things associated with smaller schools.

My middle son graduated from Belmont University, a mid sized university. It was a bit more impersonal and bureaucratic than Case Western but he had a good experience for other reasons. It suited him. He needed to be in Nashville, NY or Los Angeles. That was more important than the size or type of school. He didn’t like NYU though. It was just too large for him.

My youngest is currently a sophomore at Haverford. He is the perfect candidate for a LAC. He is an intellectually curious, student athlete. He really likes the small campus environment. He works for the athletic department and also worked for one of his professors. He is an officer of a few clubs. He got a great internship (with our senator!).

LACs are not on the radar of many of the kids who my youngest went to high school with ( private, college prep HS). I agree with you that they should be on the radar for many more kids.

31

Nothing wrong with choosing LAC’s, but all liberal arts colleges are not the same — and much of that list is based on myths about large universities that don’t hold true.

Way back when, I was a shy 16-year-old who started at a very large public U in a state about 1000 miles from my home. I definitely became more outgoing and confident at my large U.

Here is what I had there, as compared to the “LAC” list.

  1. Small classes:

Definitely. I had a mix of small & large classes, and a seemingly endless array of options to choose from. The smallest class I remember had 6 students.

  1. Easy access to professors.

No problem, they all had office hours and I got to know some quite well.

  1. Great opportunities for jobs (on campus, as well as during summer), internships, volunteering, and research opportunities.

Plenty of that at my big U— the university even gave me use of a car to travel to neighboring cities for the volunteer work I did through their center – I tutored for a while, later volunteered in a legal aid office. My legal aid work turned into the basis for a senior thesis project.

4.It feels like a community. Campus events are well-attended and popular:

Definitely true when I was a student. There was a lot more to do on campus than off, so even during the years I lived off campus, the campus was a hub for activities.

  1. She is getting a great education:

No problem at the big U. Because of its resources it had many professors who were at the top of their fields – and the facilities with large lecture halls also meant that large number of students had access to the most popular profs and courses. No locked doors either – I sometimes attended lectures in classes I wasn’t enrolled in because of the qualities of the profs.

  1. LAC's are generally inclusive.

I never was turned away from anything I wanted to participate in. Plenty of clubs & activities.

  1. Students can learn about a bit of everything, if they choose to.

At my big U I could take pretty much any course I wanted to. Didn’t have to declare a major until end of sophomore year. Most departments had courses with a #10 designation that were specifically geared to nonmajors – they were usually smaller classes as well, and a very safe way of exploring an area outside the student’s comfort zone. I opted for an interdisciplinary major where I essentially wrote my own major – so I honestly don’t remember ever taking a specific class because it was a requirement – except for the senior seminar that was required for all students in my department.

  1. Graduates of LAC's have a high acceptance rate to grad schools of all kinds.

Well I got accepted into a top-5 law school, so I can’t complain.

  1. Many of them are very generous with financial aid.

Well, I went to school back in the stone age, so the university education was dirt cheap for state residents. But 35 years down the line, I know that the in-state public U. would have cost half or less as compared to the LAC my daughter attended, including grant & merit aid. My son started at a private LAC but ended up graduating from an in-state public regional u, largely because of cost considerations.

32

Wake Forest is a better example, perhaps.

Despite Wake being ranked as a national university, only 1% of classes at Wake have more than 50 students – fewer large classes than several elite liberal arts colleges, including Middlebury (1.3%), Williams (2%), Bowdoin (2.2%), Swarthmore (2.7%), Amherst (2.8%), Wesleyan (3%), and Harvey Mudd (4%).

33

Note to all: This post is not about “LAC’s are better than universities.” This post is to let people know that LAC’s are an option that people can consider…as the title of the post suggests. I stated that LAC’s are not for everyone.

34

Now, to round things out, my kids attended LAC’s – my son at a small private LAC for 2 years only; my daughter at a an urban LAC tied to a larger university.

There were many positives associated with each, but here is the other side of the coin:

  1. Small classes.

My daughter, like me, had a mix of small & large. It was not unusual for a class at her LAC to have 90-120 students. My son had almost all small classes, and at first it seemed like a great fit, but he tired of it rather quickly – he said that after the first few weeks he pretty much knew what every student in the seminar was going to say before they spoke, and he was frustrated that he was listening to the opinions of other undergrads so much of the time when he felt the prof would have had more to offer in a lecture context. My daughter often voiced similar complaints about fellow students in her seminars. Sometimes the magic worked, but often it didn’t. Seminar-size classes tended to be more productive at the graduate school level, when classes were made up of students with more varied backgrounds, ages, and life experiences.

  1. Easy access to profs. --- No complaints there.
  2. Great opportunities for jobs.

It worked for my daughter at her urban campus, though she found out over time that the better jobs were across the street at the research U. But the affiliation agreement gave her full access to those opportunities, so no problem.

On the other hand, my son had very limited opportunities at his small suburban LAC. All of the best work study jobs were snapped up by upperclass students, and his first year he took a low paying job working nights at the campus rec center. There just weren’t enough work-study jobs and most paid very low. Also, the suburban location meant there wasn’t much in the way of internships either – basically nothing that wouldn’t have required a commute.

  1. It feels like a community. Campus events are well-attended and popular.

Not so much. At my daughter’s urban campus, the surrounding city was more of a draw. At my son’s suburban campus, things felt somewhat claustrophobic over time, and students often left campus on weekends to go into the city.

  1. Getting a great education.

True for my daughter at her LAC/university hybrid, but my son felt frustrated. He often couldn’t get into classes he wanted — the general restrictions on class size meant that the popular classes filled up early. So he ended up in classes he had selected because they were the only ones with space that fit into his schedule, not because he was interested in the course. He had profs he liked and profs he didn’t like – but the problem is that it’s a lot harder to live with a disliked prof. when there are only 15 students in a class. My DS quit after 2 years and went to work. All in all, the LAC experience was a bust education-wise. I’m sure he learned some stuff while he was there, but he doesn’t even list that school on any of his resumes.

  1. LAC's are generally inclusive.

Both kids reported feeling out-of-place on campuses where the majority of students seemed to come from economically privileged backgrounds, and had difficulty making friends. I’d note that my daughter was and has always been very outgoing and easy going – so the overall sense of not fitting in was new to her and a tough adjustment. My son was much happier socially at the public U where he graduated. Both had anecdotes about things said to them by individual students at the LAC’s they attended that they found to be tactless or offensive.

  1. Students can learn about a bit of everything, if they choose to.

As noted above, DS had a hard time getting into courses he wanted at his LAC, and the LAC’s resources were quite limited in many areas .

  1. Grad school admissions.

Both my kids have similar master’s degrees from large universities in the respective cities where they live. Neither had any problem getting admitted. Although my son attended a private LAC for 2 years, he graduated from a regional state public, and the admission policies for his master’s program focused only on the last two years of undergrad – so he was admitted based his public U. degree. Both kids worked several years before starting grad school, so I’m not sure that the choice of school for undergrad was all that important in any case.

  1. Financial Aid.

Both my kids attended LAC’s where the financial aid was need-based. My son had strongly wanted a LAC and was accepted to several where the financial aid was simply inadequate-- at least two LACs, including his top choice, had to be turned down because of inadequate aid. My daughter’s LAC was more generous than other private colleges that admitted her, but still roughly twice the cost of attending an in-state public.

I think the financial aid thing can be quite variable based on individual circumstances. It was a stretch for me and I had to take out PLUS loans to enable my kids to attend the LAC’s-- I would not have needed those loans if my daughter had opted for one of the in-state publics that accepted her. In our case, our level of need exceeded what we were offered anywhere in merit aid, so whatever merit was offered was subsumed within the need-based awards. Basically, it can be tough to be middle class when it comes to college financing.

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None of this post is meant to bash LAC’s. Obviously there are many students who are delighted with their experiences at various LAC’s.

But the point is: Each LAC is different. And each student is different.

So prospective students need to dig deeper, and they also need to consider what that students’ needs might be at age 20 or 21, not just what is the best fit for the high school senior filling out the application.

35

Understood, @calmom . The flip side could be that large university lecture halls are impersonal, too many students can make one feel aimless, lots of competition for various opportunities, large city campuses mean kids can often spend a lot more money, undergrad research is extremely difficult to obtain, much of the student population doesn’t care about their classes or course work, overworked/underpaid professors with classes so large that they can’t effectively teach and/or are burned out, TA’s teaching classes rather than profs, etc… Again though, that’s not the intent of the post.

I do agree that mid-sized universities and colleges can provide the best of both worlds.

36

You can find LACs and non-LACs in cities where it is easier to spend a lot of money, and you can find LACs and non-LACs in isolated locations “where there is nothing to do but drink”.

Really, a lot of the things brought up in this thread are school-specific, as opposed to characteristics that one can generalize about LACs versus non-LACs.

37

@ucbalumnus With respect to LAC for those thinking medical school or law school, I was referring to big universities being the more affordable route for most full-pay students, particularly those with high stats for automatic merit aid, but not stellar enough for large merit aid at higher LACs.

38

@ucbalumnus , yep, but I am generalizing. No doubt there are plenty of kids at all colleges who spend piles of cash, and those who spend next to nothing.

The point of the thread is to make people aware that LACs are an option, not to debate the merits of LACs over universities. Obviously people are in the mood to debate.

39

Like with the OP’s generalization 9 in post #0 (basically the same claim in the opposite direction), affordability comparisons are very specific to the school, student, and family. Generalizing affordability based on whether a school is a LAC or non-LAC is a pointless exercise.

40

My question is about small class size. Why didn’t these kids come out of their shell in high school where all the teachers know the students by name and there is lots of class discussions and interactions among a small group of students, just like a LAC?

I think part of the perceived maturity at LAC has to do with age as much as the class size no matter what size college you go to. Most kids mature a lot from 17-21 years of age.

Not knocking LAC, just think that there is more to the story than was listed above regarding class size.