<p>adigal started a separate thread to talk about choices for her son, and I see there are already two pages of comments. That’s always an option.</p>
<p>alh: Everyone brings different experiences to the table. Not better but different. I see as much to be learned from the kid who grew up in a crummy neighborhood with crime and poverty who had to claw his way into college as the kid who spent summers learning how to handle the family’s yacht. Give me a mix of kids (or adults for that matter) any day.</p>
<p>calmom: ouch.</p>
<p>MotherofTwo - I never “defined” a minimum threshold for the scores. In fact, specifically mentioned several schools with mid 50% ranges of 1250-1430.</p>
<p>Is it just possible that you are allocating to others some of your own personal misgivings and defensiveness regarding you son’s scores?</p>
<p>Sorry reflectivemom, for not noticing the “range” you gave in one of your posts. I can’t say I scrutinized every one of your posts. I was reacting to your post #244: “those that don’t make 220 or so on the PSAT are below his target level”. </p>
<p>At this point, my kids are both doing great, and their SAT scores are the least of my concerns.</p>
<p>Why should I feel defensive or have misgivings? One kid graduated from his school with honors and is working at a great job in his field, and the other one loves her school and was just accepted into a highly selective study abroad program for next year.</p>
<p>ALH, I think JHS was saying there are only a few truly elite schools, and that’s what students are like in such school, at least at his time. That is not to say that I totally disagree with what you said in your post but most of us will be uncomfortable to comment, whether we are on one or the other side of the aisle.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo,</p>
<p>I’m glad to hear your kids are doing well. Isn’t that all any of us really want? Otherwise why are we here?</p>
<p>sax-- absolutely! I agree with you. But does it change the intellectual atmosphere of a college when the students have had more advantages? Or do you think it has no impact academically? I have personally been very back and forth over the value of private/elitist education and am quite conflicted about my kids participating in the system.</p>
<p>alh, in what way do you feel conflicted?</p>
<p>padad- yes I think you are right. not a good discussion. sorry for bringing it up.</p>
<p>1sokkermom,</p>
<p>Love it! Smartest guy I ever met was headed into forestry. Pre-meds often used to ask “But, you could go to medical school?” They truly didn’t get it. Spent 10 years in forestry and then headed back to school - this time pursued a PhD in astrophysics.</p>
<p>Reflective:
BurnThis,</p>
<p>We’re talking a first pass? How did your son chose which schools to visit? He chose the top rated academic schools (since he wanted schools that pulled in the smartest students) that had strong Classics programs (HYP, Columbia, Penn, Tufts) and were regionally similar (hence he missed UofChi). He will miss out on many smart kids at MIT and CalTech and Stanford, but he wanted east coast and not math/science. </p>
<p>What criteria did he use to define what he meant by “smart”? Able to get into the most desirable schools academically – so with some combo of high SATs and grades, excellent teacher recs. I don’t know that my son has every given any thought to what SAT score his future classmates should have. I know he doesn’t want all Vals, he wants kids who took the hardest classes even if they ended up with (gasp) a B+ in some. He does NOT mean kids who do all their reading, all their homework and have six tutors to guarantee all As!</p>
<p>Some people use GPA, class rank, science awards, winners of various competions. I think everyone of use could “shoot down” any of those criteria. Agreed. </p>
<p>He was just trying to narrow the field. And, quite honestly, he hasn’t seen many “highly gifted students” who had difficulty with the “restraints inherent in those types of tests” - especially the PSAT. Then he hasn’t gotten around much, lol. My son went to a private school for the gifted in elementary/middle school and those kids (especially the off the charts ones) could make you go crazy convincing you that a bunch of multiple choice answers could be correct if you make various assumptions or if you interpret this this way instead of that. There are some very unique thinkers out there! Maybe he’ll get to meet some in college. My son was lucky enough to be surrounded by kids like that from an early age. My own son missed all four of the “easy” quesitons on the PSAT verbal section because “those questions couldn’t possibly be that easy, there had to be a catch.” After that he learned that some answers are just obvious, there’s no trick, and voila --800 on the CR.</p>
<p>We’re true blue elitists and I should be getting the flames, not you. The only difference I can see is my son uses a more holistic approach in determining who’s smart (basically talking to them), and doesn’t focus so much on scores/grades.</p>
<p>I’ll add our experience, and leave it to all of you to decide if there’s anything to be learned from it. My daughter is at her sure bet school with substantial merit aid. The aid is the result of two different scholarships from the school and one talent award from her major department, and combined, they amount to an [almost] full tuition award. She’s a kid who followed the money; her favorite school came up with a wonderful package (no gap), but she was concerned about the loan component over four years, as well as our ability to pay beyond the first year.</p>
<p>There’s no question in my mind that she sometimes misses the level of intellectual, “life of the mind” sort of discussions that were the norm at her public, performing arts high school. She’s said as much to me on several occasions, and I have always offered her the option of transferring. She’s always said no and tells me that despite the occasional frustration, she loves her school.</p>
<p>It’s become clear to me that my daughter has always been a lemons-into- lemonade kid, and she continues that pattern in college. When her hometown high school looked like it was going to eviscerate the music program, she sought out an alternative, and spent four years commuting 1+ hour to her PA high school. When she was considering whether musical theatre was something she wanted to pursue in college, she found an opportunity which led to a one-night performance with other high schoolers on Broadway…and decided MT wasn’t a career for her. When she wanted to get serious about classical music, she asked for season tickets to the opera house for her birthday and proceeded to audition and perform as a super in opera productions. She paid for half of the cost of a session at Interlochen and through that, auditioned for and sang with for an all-state chorus at U of M. </p>
<p>Kids from our small farm town “just don’t do” this sort of thing, but my daughter has the sort of drive that identifies and pursues opportunities…but with a clear understanding of the bottom line. Her goals as of now are to join the Peace Corps (or something similar) after graduation, get a graduate degree (in an undetermined area) after that, and eventually work in a developing country in some sort of cultural liaison capacity. With amorphous goals like that, and our own limited resources, respect for the bottom line is a necessary element of her planning.</p>
<p>In college, she’s reinventing her identity as “music major” because it’s too limiting for her, and is in the process of working with her advisor on an individualized BA (and the music department chair has assured her she can keep her music talent award, since she will be incorporating a heavy music emphasis in her new major). She tutors ESL students twice weekly; it started as a course requirement first quarter, but she’s kept it up because she enjoys it and it ties in with her long-term goals. She was selected to join a special leadership training program this year and is applying for a diversity program next year. She’s identified the study abroad program she wants and is meeting with the study abroad advisor next quarter to start the process for a quarter abroad in Zimbabwe her junior year (selected, in part, because her scholarships will travel with her). And she’s happily discovering that LOTM conversations are beginning to happen as initial acquaintances shake out and true friendships are emerging.</p>
<p>I think that my daughter is a clear example of someone meeting the guidelines expressed in items 1-4. I would add that her ability to maximize opportunities is so much a part of who she is that I’ve never worried that she would be somehow “cheated” by attending her sure bet.</p>
<p>JHS said in post 437:
</p>
<p>I find that very hard to believe. Is there, perhaps, just a tad bit of generalizing here? Does she have a terribly narrow group of friends?</p>
<p>Okay, well, I’ve hesitated posting on this thread; however, I wanted to make a point that I don’t <em>think</em> has been made before. Sorry if it has–but if the point was made, it was either too subtle for me, I may have missed some posts here! </p>
<p>I find threads like this somewhat troubling, in their titles alone. The implication, of course, is always that the “merit scholarship school” is not the “top school.”</p>
<p>So what about the kid, like my own, who decided–after lots of research–that her top school was, in fact, the one that ultimately awarded her a merit scholarship? She applied to 8 schools, all of which are nationally ranked higher than UNC-CH (in the top 10), and all were private, except for the one she chose. Of the 8, only 3 even offered merit scholarships, one of which publicly states they don’t offer merit scholarships, but she was awarded one anyway. And one of those, she didn’t bother to apply for any of their scholarships, as she’d already moved the school to the bottom of her list–for various reasons.</p>
<p>At any rate, after much research and re-visiting, she realized that her top choice school-- the place that really offered her everything she was looking for in a school, on all levels, was the school she now attends (UNC-CH). While all the other schools to which she was accepted are excellent and certainly have their strengths, there were other things about them she didn’t like (right down to very minor issues, like the weather). </p>
<p>When she returned home from the finalist weekend for her particular scholarship, she announced that this was the school she wanted to attend, regardless. Again, it just had more of everything she was looking for in a school–on all levels. She really liked the people there, and it was a great fit. We were also very impressed with the school, and our visit there stood out above all the rest. Having attended a relatively large inner-city public magnet school, she also liked the size of UNC and the diversity.</p>
<p>While some people may have considered UNC a “safety” for her (because we’re in-state), she never viewed it that way. And, truth be told, had we lived out of state, even in another state only 85 miles away, that out of state acceptance would have been about as difficult as getting into a top Ivy. (And, you know, it’s the same school–whether you’re in-state or not.)</p>
<p>As a follow-up, she is extremely satisfied with her choice, and the opportunities and experiences she has had, thus far, have been incredible–thanks in large part to her own skills and motivation, the school itself, and–of course–the truly outstanding scholarship program. I will add that, even though she had made UNC her top choice before knowing about the scholarship, she actually would have turned down <em>any</em> school for this particular scholarship. She considers herself very fortunate, and both she and her parents are very happy. Oh, and she has lots of friends, all from different and varied backgrounds and experiences, and I don’t think she knows what their SAT scores were. ;)</p>
<p>In response to Alh: Well, education is much more than academics. I do believe this. I also believe if everyone has very similiar experiences there is so much less to learn. I think it’s really cool when kids meet kids from other countries but it’s just as cool when they meet kids from the Hamptons to the ghetto. Some people want this as part of their education. Some don’t. Some people never plan on spending any time with people who are different or less “educated” than they are. Some schools seem to try and have diversity. Swarthmore is very diverse and very good at adding this to their education while maintaining a high academic ground. My son’s state u. …not so much. But it is there if you search it out. It’s a big place :)</p>
<p>Based on my son’s experience, Stanford also has great diversity in the life experiences and socio-economic backgrounds of its student body. Since my son went to an average (not elite) suburban public high school, meeting boh types of kids (as Sax said - from the “Hamptons” or from the “ghetto”) was a broadening experience for him.</p>
<p>momofwildchild:
</p>
<p>Give me a walk in the woods with a forester ANYDAY, over a discussion of, what was it?, Sophicles during the frat party?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>See, I don’t have a problem with you stating your criteria and it being different than mine. I don’t necessarily agree with the “ratings” and I guess we could have a discussion about the validity of various “ratings”. But, I also don’t feel any need to flame you because you depend on such. </p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Okay, much the same here for my son. I distinctly laid this out in one of my posts. My son and his friends have the “package” to be competitive for admission to these schools - where they will apply is a choice. </p>
<p>Your son obviously has a specialized interest. My does not. He’s interested in anything and everything. What I was trying to convey - in the absence of a particular interest, what he most wants is “high ability” students. And, since the topic was top school or top scholarship - we were all trying to determine how to evaluate the offers from other than “top tier” schools . The best predictor of such will be different for different kids. So, all I said, was that, even with all their limitations, my son has found aptitude tests to be a good predictor. Yes, there are problems with such. There are also problems with grade inflation, socio-economic stratification, favoritism and personal opinion in recommendations, etc. </p>
<br>
<br>
<p>That will be great when we get to the “visits”. Not there yet. We were just looking to develop a list. </p>
<p>I still don’t know why we can’t all help one another with our search without the flames. </p>
<p>Seems like we might be back on target with recent posts.</p>
<p>weenie: hahahahah</p>
<p>jack, great post. She defined “best” for herself by her own parameters. It’s great that it is working out. I think that she is hitting all the points in 1-4 and then some. LOL. Any specifics you could add about how she did her vetting of UNC would be a great help to those in the hunt right now.</p>
<p>It sounds like she went through much the same process as D. D also jettisoned several schools after her special scholarship weekend. </p>
<p>I am glad I encouraged you to post. Hopefully folks will see the good faith it was posted in and act accordingly. I have faith they will. ;)</p>