<p>How??? It is off topic, but very interesting! :eek:</p>
<p>(I mean how can you do it if you own property and are gainfully employed??)</p>
<p>It’s too late to have more kids… :)</p>
<p>Too late to have a business fail…:)</p>
<p>“I think the whole premise that one sacrifices academic quality and peer interaction at these schools is, well, it’s elitist.”</p>
<p>If so, blame the schools handing out merit money, because they are reinforcing that idea more than anyone else. If your product is just as desirable as the next guy’s product, then you shouldn’t have to cut the price in half to ensure that you make the sale. Now, certain customers may feel that the discounted product serves their needs just as well as the more expensive product for sale next door, and that’s great for everyone concerned. But that doesn’t mean that all the products are the same.</p>
<p>Furthermore, when a retailer is offering deep discounts to certain customers (but not the rest), then that retailer obviously believes that all the customers are not created equal, and that some customers bring such enormous value to the business that it’s worth taking a loss on them. That’s unbelievably elitist, but are they wrong? <em>Brandeis/Tulane/Duke/etc.</em> are the ones explicitly saying that HYP-type kids make such a difference on campus that they’re worth $150k apiece.</p>
<p>To answer another point that was raised, critical mass matters, yes, but it’s one thing to have a critical mass of the kind of peers you’re looking for, and another to have a whole school of them. I found the second to be substantially better than the first. It doesn’t mean that the first is inadequate or that you should mortgage your life away to get the second. But IMHO, having 500 peers on campus is great and having 5000 of them is better. If that makes me an elitist, so be it, but all the merit-money schools agree with me that you’ll get a lot more out of some classmates than others.</p>
<p>
Precisely why I said my impression is vague. I’d have to research it. But 50 positions doesn’t seem to be a huge gap. Aren’t there 3000 colleges in the US? Don’t some lower ranked schools shine in certain majors? Aren’t there a zillion reasons why a lower ranked school would be a better choice, like a theater/artsy kid looking to go to school in NYC & willing to drop down the prestige ladder to do so?</p>
<p>But Hanna, as we have already learned the bottom 3/4 at an Ivy is not any better stats wise than the top 3/4 at Vandy. There is not the 500 to 5000 that you think, is there? LOL. That everyone should be able to see.</p>
<p>Hanna: How do you know those 5,000 folks are all your peers? How do you define peer? A large number of those 5,000 might be substantially less smart/capable/talented than you (however you define that); others might be substantially more smart/capable/talented than you. And, if so, how do you think that makes them feel–having the less talented you in a class with them? I wonder if it would irritate them. Just curious.</p>
<p>500 posts ago or 15 minutes ago (same thing 
)someone said they get the most out of reading how people made their decisions on which school to attend. I appreciated those posters, Behurah, Kat and others, who dared enter these waters to share their stories again. I think it helps people to look at the various factors others deal with in their decision making (it might point out one or two factors they hadn’t thought of).</p>
<p>I would be sad to think that this thread was useless. In a few weeks there will be heartbroken kids and parents who need to know that maybe, just maybe, schools farther down on their list can give them everything they need and it isn’t the huge tradeoff that this forum seems to make everyone believe.
This thread has been hard work for everyone and maybe we have all learned something while experiencing it. I know I have.</p>
<p>mom365:
</p>
<p>I seriously hope no one takes college advice from this person. She clearly has no clue what she is talking about. Sorry to be harsh, but that’s the truth.</p>
<p>Need can be met in many ways…thousand and thousand in loans, un-doable FWS $4000-$5000 at $6.00 per hour, and of course very few schools actually meet the 100% demonstrated need. Many of DD’s and some of DS’s schools gapped by $10,000-$15,000 per year. </p>
<p>I did not say DD didn’t choose the Ivy or others because they didn’t meet her need. She didn’t choose them because they were NOT the best “fit”. That is why I stated all money was equal when she made her choices. As did son. (Actually for son there were a few other schools that offered more then P’ton in FA.)</p>
<p>And I really don’t think anyone would willingly choose the circumstances one would need to be in to have an EFC of zero. Trust me, it kinda bites.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>"Mom365 said, “One of the reasons you will hear top musicians at State schools is because that is all they do. Their grades are not good enough to get into a conservatory or an elite. I know several kids like this.”</p>
<p>OMG - just when I thought we had heard the worst of/from the worst, someone comes along and makes a statement that makes everyone gasp. </p>
<p>I’ve known many incredible musicians that have chosen state colleges - the key word here is “chosen”. </p>
<p>Can someone’s bubble really be this small?"</p>
<p>Not to hijack this further but, what the heck. It’s a bad day here.
- Grades not good enough to get into a conservatory? The closest I’ve heard to that is that if there is a semi-tie on audition, they’ll look at the grades. I highly doubt someone ever won the top spot at a conservatory but didn’t get in due to grades, as long as they had a h.s. degree and passed most things.
- grades not good enough to major in music at an elite? yes. I know someone who one the audition at NU but did not get accepted to the college. he went to Juilliard instead.
- state colleges are for the ones with the bad grades? For a musician there is only teacher, teacher, teacher. Don’t know much about most instruments and am not a musician but I would certainly say that a student of Richard Stoelzel at Grand Valley State in Michigan, Chris Gekker at U. MD, Brian McWhorter, U Oregon I think now, Don Batchelder, Montclair State would all learn more than at most elite schools. There are many, many more conservatory level teachers at state schools and not just ones with a big school of music like U. MD.
- what?
- Plato? you folks read Plato to them? Did you do the flashcards from the Institute for the Development of Human Potential too? I guess it’s too late for me now.</p>
<p>No one has spoken about the pay off to the schools. The poster who wrote about the child with a 2400 being singled out opened my eyes. How important must that be to a school if it made it into a 10 minute speech?</p>
<p>It’s a mutual use situation that is understandable. We’ll take the deep discount, you can showcase me.</p>
<p>These schools are well researched. It seems clear that uping stats must have some very tangible pay off. Anyone have details?</p>
<p>jmmom</p>
<p>I couldn’t agree more with your posts. There are so many schools where our kids can get a great education. And a highly motivated student can turn almost any school into a wonderful experience. My son is putting fit above prestige. Granted, 7 of his apps were sent to top 25 US News LACs, but he didn’t even want to visit Ivies (didn’t seem like best fit–Brown was closest), didn’t want Amherst (too preppy) or Williams (too sportsy) or Swarthmore for some reason or other; for Wellesley, he’s gender-inappropriate). I know these are all great schools, but I think my son is correct that these are not his best fit schools.</p>
<p>And he could end up picking Reed or Macalester, a bit farther down “the list” over a “higher ranked” school. With Reed, the intellectual focus and with Macalester, the International focus could certainly sway his decision. We will support whatever he decides. Fit is more important to us than prestige and name recognition. Out here in the NE, the Midwest is sort of like Outer Mongolia-- not on people’s maps.</p>
<p>Ok, so I haven’t read all the posts that have been made since I was last here, since I’m busy with school. </p>
<p>But anyway, I just wanted to say that I don’t think this thread is useless. There are things here that would have been helpful to know while I was selecting colleges (though I’m not sure it would have changed my decision.) Even some of the side conversations can help to people who aren’t as knowledgeable about some colleges as you all are. </p>
<p>For example, I learned that you can try to get into a course even if you don’t have all of the supposed “prerequisites.” I’m considering taking a senior level history class next semester now, even though my advisor told me I couldn’t until I had completed a certain course. I have a ton of history credit from AP though, and if I weren’t in the interdisciplinary program with set courses (and a set schedule for taking them), I’d have all the prereqs for that history course. I’m not sure I’m taking the course, because I don’t know if I can fit it into my schedule, but I now know that people (even at my school, as someone said in their PM to me) have been able to petition to take higher level courses.</p>
<p>Just realize that some people don’t have parents and guidance counselors who know anything about the college admissions process. I know plenty of people at my public high school who didn’t and had to figure out everything on their own. I’ll be one of the first to say that most of this thread was pointless, because people have argued back and forth making the same claims over and over and being nitpicky. But it isn’t completely useless. </p>
<p>And I like the list idea, because some people who could use the ideas in this thread would be daunted by the size, and might not have time to go through it all. Sure, lists don’t work for everyone, and the list should be used more as a “make sure you at least think about these things” than an end-all checklist to see which school you should go to, but it still could help.</p>
<p>Anyway, I may re-read and comment on more of the posts later. But for now, it’s back to studying for calc and physics exams this week and writing papers…</p>
<p>
BTW thanks for playing.
Maybe others will join. LOL. I don’t disagree but that same 50 positions or school difference is the same as HYPS/Florida,GWU, and Pepperdine and the same as AWS/DePauw, Lawrence, St.Olaf. </p>
<p>And before anyone drills me on the USNWR, give me any other ranking and I’ll use that instead.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You are likely to find it far more valuable. Good luck.</p>
<p>Yup, the commentary about state school musicians was just plain…wrong. 100%!</p>
<p>With all the certainty in the posts, I think it’s fair for posters to give us some background on where their decision came from. I went back and searched evil robot briefly. His Yale v, Vandy decision seemed to be based on a high EFC. His cost difference over 4 years was $40K. Vandy is probably near the top of mjor merit schools, so it’s an interesting situation.</p>
<p>Cur, why did your daughter add ivies at the last moment. What, if you feel comfortable saying, was your four year difference?</p>
<p>LOL about the musicians coments
I PM’ed the poster,who I cant help by now but think is a ■■■■■
I didnt think the thread should be hijacked
Boy,she/he certainly didnt like my comments about sticking to writing about what you know!!</p>
<p>A smooth $100K and we were talked into it by Dave Berry of this site ( a college counselor) and most every poster posting on your side of the fence that were here then plus a dozen more . “Curmudgeon, if there is ANY chance at all that you can get enough need bucks you HAVE to get her to apply”. That and folks that thought she was going to be quite successful on her apps led me to advise her to do so , and she filled out the apps and sent them the last day possible (as I remember there was something strange about the mail service. Holiday? Something.) I paid for the superduper rush ACT scores or else they wouldn’t have made it in time, I think it cost a billion dollars or so it seemed.</p>
<p>I would have never thought of applying to any need only school as I do not see us as needy or disadvantaged. We are well off in our rural community.</p>
<p>What if one of these uber-elites with their mega-endowments finally said:</p>
<p>“We want every qualified interested student who dreams of coming to our school to be able to do so. We know that the current financial aid methodology can not adequately assess each and every student’s financial position and fear some students are being kept from attending due to financial considerations. Therefore, we have decided to completely eliminate tuition for the foreseeable future. We are confident that the students who attend our institution will realize the gift they have been given and “give back” so that we can continue to offer this gift to future generations.”</p>
<p>What would happen? Would these schools be overwhelmed if $$$ were no longer an issue? Or, once would they lose their selectivity and attractiveness?</p>
<p>Cur (he/she?), what do you and spouse do for a living if I may ask?</p>