<p>Cannot believe this is page 78 of a post started five days ago!! But here I am, in a similar spot. Daughter got a full tuition scholarship at a small, good (but not well known) LAC which was her safety school. If she gets into Georgetown, UVA or Davidson she will definitely want to go there due to the top level of academics. She wants to be in a peer group of intellectual equals and NOT be the top dog of the crowd. However, unless we get money from these places, she may not be able to attend. We don’t need a full ride, but about $15,000 in grants or merit would make it doable. I can see passing up a full ride but only if the parents can afford and are willing to pay for another option. I am not a believer in going into debt or compromising one’s future for a brand name school.</p>
<p>katwkittens: 
Very funny. I enjoyed that; thanks.</p>
<p>Motheroftwo: D moved off campus because she ate so little of the food in the gold plated eating plan at her school. Figures she is saving a ton. Son, on the other hand, will have to train for a marathon if he takes one of the “all you can eat” plans or the freshman 15 may be kilos—cross country runner opts for sumo wrestling club after freshman year dining hall experience…</p>
<p>I love the list concept cur- binx did a nice job applying it.</p>
<p>How about a wew thread- focusing on that, and I hope the new ER will emerge for 2007- putting a name, face, and soul on this issue. Hopefully, bringing out the “best in CCers”. </p>
<p>In fact, I tell everyone about the CC, especially the parents forum.</p>
<p>Somehow, even though immensely compelling, this morphed, especially last night,into something very unattractive. </p>
<p>Folks, put down the wine glasses and step back from the computer :)</p>
<p>Cur- you are an inspiration, and this is just the prelude to the angst that occurs over the next few weeks.
Keep the list going !</p>
<p>I am perplexed. If those who favor choosing Shreyer Honor College at Penn State and disdain the “elitists” here, then why is it that they have to keep mentioning the Honor College rather than just Penn State. There is nothing magical about the Honor College; students at State College don’t ask each other whether they are at the Shreyer before they make friends or how many Shreyer students are in particular classes. Most prof’s certainly don’t know about them and don’t treat Shreyer students differently. I think at Virginia, Echols are no longer able to register courses ahead of others, and I bet this trend will spread to other colleges (which I approve). Unlike the Echols at Virginia, an applicant to Penn State has to actively apply to Shreyer independently. So why do they do that?</p>
<p>Just to be provocative, I would think those parents who sent or encourage their kids to “honor colleges” are just elitists, whereas those who simply sent their kids to whatever colleges that they are able to afford, merit money or not, are just non-elistist parents.</p>
<p>Berurah is right again. Growing up in the Catholic school system, the nuns would always stress “Don’t blow your own horn.” They’d draw a picture of a bucket & a thimble on the blackboard & remind us that the thimble that was filled to the brim because of hard work was much more impressive (& more closely in keeping with God’s laws) than the bucket filled only half way, even though the bucket contained more water. “There but for the grace of God go I” was our motto. As a middle-aged woman, these messages are indelibly branded on my psyche. So I don’t think an elitism reeking of hubris and arrogance is inevitable, despite the best efforts of parents & clergy.</p>
<p>I fear getting involved in a thread like this, but here’s how Curmudgeon’s points worked out for me, who took the top scholarship instead of the “elite” schools: </p>
<p>1) The kid knows they can be happy, proud, and fulfilled intellectually and academically or in any other way they find important, at the merit school.</p>
<p>With this point, I think it depends a lot on what the student defines as fulfillment. Would I have had more intellectual discussions at a more prestigious school? Yes. But is life about intellectual discussions or is it about working with many different kinds of people, leading organizations, and conducting research in new areas? If I want, I can go places and meet with people to have intellectual discussions, which I do quite often. If I simply want to discuss sports or local politics, I know where to go as well. None of this is spelled out in stone, it’s just something you have to seek and find on your own or with the help of your scholarship program. </p>
<p>2) There can’t be a dramatic difference in quality between the two schools in what that student finds important be that student body, profs, research opps, salad bar whatever. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t say that this is nearly as important, because it’s difficult to compare two completely different schools. Sure some of the professors may be worse, but the key is avoiding them and seeking out the good ones. If you’re willing to challenge yourself and put in the time to find good professors, you can put together an amazing education. At whatever school you go to, it’ll be up to the student to make the choices about what he/she wants to be involved with. </p>
<p>3) They need to be a kid capable and happy to run from the front because they may be there, or near there, or in the top group. (They also may not.) Some kids shun the spotlight. Some kids detest being singled out. While some kids love the attention, and feel rewarded by the perks and privileges associated with the big merit awards at some schools.</p>
<p>Very true. You have to be willing to put yourself out there. This connects with number 5 I believe.</p>
<p>4) They need to be able to identify additional carrots from this school beyond just the $$$. i.e. research opps, a particular EC, or simply a peer pool that the kid really likes.</p>
<p>Good scholarship programs will help provide more than just the $$. They’ll really help out with getting research and everything else set up. I had no idea going into it, but there turned out to be an entire research center devoted to my research interests and they had a student program that offered graduate-level training and research. I’ve also been able to meet up with a broad variety of peer groups that cater to all my different interests. </p>
<p>5). In return for the exceptional perks, you must be willing to meet the expectations and demands outlined by the grantors of said perks.This includes the whole spectrum of obligations including GPA, “functions” and hosting prospies, , major, etc. )</p>
<p>This aspect is extremely valuable to keep in mind. You aren’t just there to get through college, you’re there to do exceptional things in whatever field you choose. Usually students awarded these scholarships are expected to compete for top graduate scholarships and the school is more than willing to work with them. If a school gives you a scholarship, they should have a program and/or people in place to help guide you through. If not, find another scholarship. </p>
<p>6) if there is an added benefit the degree from the Top School might bring</p>
<p>I don’t know about this one. Sure on average there’s more of a benefit to have a top degree, but I see the top students, quite often the scholarship recipients, at my school going on to the exact same grad schools and jobs as the ones from prestige U. They may have to work harder, but I think they’re better off for it. </p>
<p>7) Campus job?</p>
<p>In my case, I consider school to be my job. I use the financial freedom from not having a job to focus on more extracurriculars. Thus I can afford to take unpaid internships and do more study abroad without worrying about the costs. (Incidentally, I got an excellent internship last summer at a very fine nonprofit, despite not having the “elite” name going for me.)</p>
<p>I’ll add another point to the list: </p>
<p>8) Is the student the kind who likes to have a large variety of options and resources and can use them to his/her advantage? </p>
<p>This is the most important one to me, because I think that there is a kind of student who would benefit more from these kinds of scholarships than going to prestige U (for undergrad- this is not about law/grad school). Again, not EVERYONE fits in well- I’ve seen several people take full rides and then regret them (though not at my scholarship program) and I’ve seen people choose elites and then regret them as well. For me however, this choice was well worth it. By the end of the summer, I’ll have crossed off pretty much everything I ever wanted to do in college and have two more years to go beyond that. Plus I’ll have no loans coming out of undergrad, so I’ll actually be able to afford all the truly elite grad/law schools. </p>
<p>Anyway, I’m pleased to see that there is finally something being drawn out of these debates that will help people in the future. An eight, nine, or ten-point list published in a manifesto sent to all prospective students… or just stuck to the top of the board would hopefully help future students and parents to make the right choices for their situations.</p>
<p>Stickershock: I knew it! Your nuns and mine drew the same pictures. Man I remember when I was a kid(long time ago) and nuns wore full habits. I thought there were males, females and nuns.</p>
<p>Hmmm…I don’t know if it’s a need to be ‘better than’. That doesn’t register with my bell ringer. I’m not itching to design another tower becuase ti would make me better than anyone. I love seeing my work go up with the help of a tower crane and a couple of hundred men who are in o n the collaboration. What also rings my bell is spending time with brilliant and/or creative masters. Learning at the speed of light. That’s what my heat seeker tracks. Tell me something I don’t know!</p>
<p>I don’t drink much and I don’t do drugs but-- man oh man–give me more time with the most brilliant people in my social circle. I LOVE it. I learn new things from my mentally challenged neighbors and the guys on the construction site but not at the super sonic rate I learn things from my friends who happened (?) to attend elite universities like Seoul, Edinburgh, Trinity, Harvard, Bei Da.</p>
<p>Mother, I know lots of architects who went to HYP who ended up with middling careers. Lots. I don’t care that they have lesser careers than they hoped for–but they seem to mind. Most of the Princeton grads I know are struggling to make ends meet as they raise their children–as a result of careers in teaching and the arts. Their financial status isn’t important to me. they seem happy. I know a few H grads who chose to be SAHMs. They are a little scary in their determination and PTA capability but other than that–they seem happy.</p>
<p>For me, Mother, emphasis on the word ME, private is always better. Why? Because you get the chance to meet MORE kids from all over the world. For me (emphasis again), bigger is better up to 20K because the course offerings in junior and senior year are bigger.</p>
<p>I am not ignorant. I was accepted to a Big 10 school and attended orientation there before I was accepted off the waitlist to a private in August 1975. My father went to state schools and so did all of my brothers. I still chose private for my kids–from primary through tertiary.</p>
<p>Why would anyone assume my decisions are based in snootiness? Do they know me? Do they know how I’ve raised my children to be global citizens? My decisions are based on my experiences and my hopes for my children’s educational experience. Emphasis on the word ‘my’. My hopes for my children. Your hopes may vary.</p>
<p>I asked the quesiton about elitism because this board has schizophrenic views about elitism. </p>
<p>Yes, of course elite schools are wonderful! We would all go there if they were free! </p>
<p>Yes, it’s good if a kid who needs money gets into a top school but it’s bad if a full freight kid or helmet athlete or, God forbid, a frat boy gets in. </p>
<p>The CC line seems to support the idea that poorer kids and their parents are naturally less arrogant and less boast-ful. That hasn’t been my experience but maybe I’ve spent too much time in Asia.</p>
<p>Anyway, according to Bs guidelines, my kids must not be arrogant because they are wildly popular. Whew. Dodged that bullet.</p>
<p>vig180: I am printing off your post. Very good and nice expanding on what has been said so far.Thanks</p>
<p>
I had the advantage of inside info…Sr. Theresa Michael doubled as plain old Aunt Betty. I was pretty traumatized once when Aunt Betty brought me on a visit to my home parish convent & I saw my 6th grade nun without her habit. She had bright red hair, which seemed very un-nunnish. She revealed that we shared the same name, which spooked me for some reason.</p>
<p>vig180: Great points, all.</p>
<p>cheers: Actually, and I am not questioning your decisions, but I did not go to a top school or private but went to school with kids from all around the world, worked with people from Cambridge, Edinburgh etc, and have met and made friends with “exceedingly bright people” and fortunately also some who are just as nice, productive, and thoughtful, who did not go to any of those places and some who did not even go to college. I do think some folks from UCB and UMich and other places might take issue with the meeting people from around the world only at privates statement. But privates are good. As far as preparing kids for for being global citizens–well the globe is a big place and we will need global citizens from more than any one group of colleges to keep it going in the future and folks outside of others bubbles.</p>
<p>vig180 Your post is the one I’m giving to my student. I think the kids have it right. BookAddict and vig180 are two of the personal stories that make this thread valuable. Would love to hear directly from student who chose not to take large merit for whom higher prestige school was/is struggle financially posted in the same non-judgemental, YMMV fashion.</p>
<p>zixxa, granted I’m not a student, but I had hopes my S’s situation might fit your bill otherwise.</p>
<p>Vig – Appreciate your sharing of your experience. Nice to hear from a student who “is there, doing that.”</p>
<p>Good point about the job issue. Some kids’ work-studies end up being an integral part of the overall college experience - a chance to contribute to the cost, a chance to meet people outside of major or ECs, a chance to get some “real world” experience. For others, it is simply a distraction, or an unnecessary burden.</p>
<p>Re: your #8 – It’s a great question to use considering different schools, but it probably differentiates more between size of schools, rather than ranking (for lack of better word.) My D is considering a large public, a large private (that she hasn’t heard from yet, so may be moot), and several smaller LAC’s – the large schools are winning on the variety of offerings, regardless of whether it’s the public or private. Small schools are winning in other areas, like class size and teacher attention.</p>
<p>“I learn new things from my mentally challenged neighbors and the guys on the construction site but not at the super sonic rate I learn things from my friends who happened (?) to attend elite universities like Seoul, Edinburgh, Trinity, Harvard, Bei Da.”</p>
<p>Cheers, I would never use the words “mentally challenged neighbors”. And maybe you don’t recognize the “need to be better than” but its floating around somewhere in your brain.</p>
<p>I would not say I’m better than you because I’m not. I would say we live in different planets.</p>
<p>The “elite” talk is a real turn-off for me. I’m glad you have found people that are stimulating to you.</p>
<p>True oldad. UCB is a great state school. Still most of the students are from California–though they might be immigrants living in California. Californians tend to stay put in California. That’s been my observation. Most of the students at UMichigan are from Michigan. I used the word ‘MORE’ deliberately. I know it is possible to meet lots of diverse students at state schools. One of my brothers put himself through UCB. He refused to take my parent’s money. </p>
<p>My two best friends went to fourth tier states schools when they could have gone to HYP if the money and the parental support had been there. They both sent their kids (eight in total) to private–primary through teritary. One went to grad school at a top state school. My friends have been a big influence in my decisions for my kids.</p>
<p>Technically, Edinburgh, Bei Da and Seoul are state schools.</p>
<p>Sorry dstark, you’ve jumped to judgement. I live right next door to an Independent House for mentally challenged adults. Five of the men visit us on a daily basis. One has severe schizophrenia. I’m not sure what all the disabilities are but they are quite serious and require heavy duty medication and oversight. I know because we started a restaurant club with them and they all down a number of big pills before dinner. Most of them cannot drink alcohol. All of them are quite childlike but I still learn things from them. One has an unbelievable recall of the history of the city. Another participates in Special Olympics and is going to Beijing.</p>
<p>Know me before you judge me.</p>
<p>“There is nothing magical about the Honor College; students at State College don’t ask each other whether they are at the Shreyer before they make friends or how many Shreyer students are in particular classes”
Yikes - now I’m the elitist slob! This is a tough board! It’s hard to say if my son would have chosen PSU with out the honors college. Maybe - maybe not. He DID see it as a plus. I will say that he was attracted to being able to take a few small intensive classes each semester and early registration (IMO _ very impt at a big U). He liked the idea of having an adviser with smaller loads. He liked the idea of access to a smaller community in a place so big. It certainly would have made a $ difference -so the financial comparisons would be a bit different.
Is this elitist behavior by your definition? Does he tell people he goes to PSU Honors? NO. Just Penn State. Do we mention it on these boards. Yes, because it WAS a part of the decision and one of the factors we balanced.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>I did not realize your mentally challenged neighbors really are mentally challenged. I’m glad to see you can learn from them.</p>
<p>I can too.</p>
<p>I am glad to see they play a part in your lives.</p>
<p>Maybe our planets touch once in awhile. :)</p>
<p>cheers: So how many do you need on a campus? Michigan has kids from every state and lots of countries, Penn State has kids from all backgrounds. I bet at any school other than maybe Olin you do not meet them all and do not need to to have an enriching experience. Maybe some go around each mornig walk on the crowded cmapus mall and say "gee, aren’t I lucky to be immersed in a pool of geniuses. Maybe it is likee the moring vitamin or caffiene fix. Who knows. I just liked looking up at the blue sky and saying “what a nice day iit is to be alive”. But whatever works is what is right for you…</p>
<p>Time for another quote from 17 year old D on first trip back fom college freshman year. “You know I met all these kids from certain parts of the country, many who went to certain HS’s and they think they are worldy. I realized that people from my Podunk High are actually more worldy. They do not even know they live in a bubble.” Had to laugh. Gonna be an interesting ***************ologist</p>