Your kid takes the top scholarship instead of the top school. What's next?

Parents Forum
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<p>fengshui: In answer to your general question, I think there are simply many more excellent private schools, of all shapes and sizes, than there are excellent public universities. I also think that a lot of the top publics (UVA and UNC-CH as 2 examples) make an out-of-state acceptance often much more difficult than getting into a top private.</p>

<p>Also, I do believe that there are an awful lot of misconceptions out there about public universities. People believe those misconceptions, often without ever having stepped foot on a public university campus, or without active research on any of them. I think that most people (and, certainly, plenty on this board) believe that public universities don’t have a lot of money; the classes are always huge; the classes are always taught by TA’s; you’re just a number; you don’t get to know the professors; and there are no research/internship possibilities; oh, yeah, and you’ll get lost in the “shuffle.” </p>

<p>Obviously, a wide range of public universities exists, as does a wide range of private colleges/universities. The top publics with which I’m familiar, and this certainly includes UMD and UVA, have excellent faculty; small classes, as well as large classes (just like privates); lots of research/internship opportunities–absolutely including for freshmen; a wide range of course offerings and departments, large enough that you never get locked out of a class section–and with money to spend on them; strong alumni networks; and more. </p>

<p>I feel that the other positive aspect of an outstanding public university is that it’s large enough to avoid having one dominant culture (which, if you don’t like that culture found on a small campus, is often hard to avoid or change).</p>

<p>That said, some students (and their parents) really prefer a smaller environment that a private school offers. “Private,” just by the very name, is more exclusive, and people like that. I think people often feel that if they’re paying $40,000+ per year for a college or university, then they’ll be getting lots more (and I think that’s often debatable). Certainly, at most privates, you will not find the diversity ranges that you will find at publics. Some people, of course, view that diversity as a plus.</p>

<p>Obviously, a slew of excellent private schools exist; however, there are plenty that aren’t even close to the quality of many publics, nor can they offer what some of these publics can.</p>

<p>So, for what it’s worth–those are some of my theories as to “why so many students still end up attending top private schools.”</p>

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<p>Let me just add, too–as many others have pointed out here-- that no matter where you go to school, I firmly believe that the quality of your education, what you get out of it all, and your experiences at your school, whether public or private, most certainly and ultimately rests with you, the student.</p>

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<p>Hmmm, that hasn’t been my experience Jym. My experience has been that engineers make good money–starting out at $65K in New York and going up to $125K to $150k per year after ten years in a good firm. Multi-millionaires if they start their own businesses.</p>

<p>In 2005, the AVERAGE new Cornell BS in engineering earned $56K–6 mos after graduation. It’s not investment banking but it’s not architecture either, LOL.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.engr.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/statistics/post-graduate-survey.cfm[/url]”>http://www.engr.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/statistics/post-graduate-survey.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Feng, you must have skipped about 500 posts on this thread becuase you missed the fact that some of us are die-hard private university folks when it comes to our personal choices. Keep us posted about those April 1st decisions!</p>

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<p>It is hard to keep us with this thread, so forgive me if this point has been made (and we are likely to choose honors state w/ scholarship over higher ranked LAC, but the honors solves perhaps the quandry below) –</p>

<p>The one place where I think there is a little bit of truth to my tendancy to elitism is that I have always found, and continued to find, a kind of “spark” on some of the more elite colleges that we just didn’t find on some of the less elite colleges. (Of course, my definition of “elite” (or yours) is in not always congruent to USNWR or any other ranking, but is probably similar!)</p>

<p>And what do my son and I mean by “spark?” Conversation over lunch is more likely to be over whether your coffee will stay warmer if you mix the cream in now or when you are ready to drink it and begin with thermodynamics, range to what perception is, evolve to free trade coffee and politics , someone would make a literary reference and it end up with an argument about whether a computer model would constitute a solution. It would rarely be about clothes, and if so certainly not about what celebs were wearing. </p>

<p>Not everyone would be an “intellectual” but there would be more than critical mass. There would be tons of fun, and it would be memorable and not involve throwing up (well, it might, but that would not involve the memorable part!) I remember the Halloween parties at the Harvard G school of design (I had a friend who went there) – people came dressed in a team as the Titanic, as LARGE abstract sculpture things, as concepts… Art would be created out of NECCO wafers (remember them)… the best student in your bio chem class might also be the editor of the litarary magazine, the student with the best project in your archeology class is in charge of lighting at the spring musical, the poet with tears in his eyes as he reads his sonnet is also on the rugby team.</p>

<p>Classes are fun because no one is there just to get a degree to earn a living, most folks love learning (although of course everyone has to take some classes to fulfill requirements they don’t like!) People talk about the subject matter after class because they are interested, although they stop talking about it because they have other interests. People are quick witted, they share a common intellectual base… when their cultural bases don’t completely overlap they are eager to enlarge theirs by sucking up knowledge from their new friends. You assume everyone you meet has something special to offer you… is smarter than you, more experienced than you, more knowledgable than you in something… and that doesn’t detract from your worth because you have something special to offer as well, even if it just your unique take on the book you just read. Some people choose to care about grades because it is just the way they are, or because their life goals require it (pre-med) – everyone more or less is cares most of the time, but not one cares much about his or her standing compared to his or her other classmates.</p>

<p>Whew! That fantasy made me HOT! (Aw shucks, it’s just my age!)</p>

<p>If scholarship school couldn’t offer my S any of that… well, then, why would we have applied? But suppose we did? Then I wouldn’t send him there over the right, and retirement-ruining expensive college. But if scholarship school could meet those goals partway… well, nothing is life is perfect… and if he could have that experience some of the time … money would weigh heavily, heavily, heavily as a factor in decision making…
PS (these are OUR important factors – rather my son’s – for another student they would be different)</p>

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<p>Cheers-
Hope it is so (as s is a mech eng. major), but thats not what the general published figures say. For eg; <a href=“http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0703/gallery.bestjobs_young.moneymag/6.html[/url]”>http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0703/gallery.bestjobs_young.moneymag/6.html&lt;/a&gt; There are other stats on engineering websites, but i can’t put my fingers on them right now. Assuming the engineer is able to jump up that corporate ladder, the salary can jump accordingly. But From what I;ve read, the overall averages suggest that the incomes plateau faster than othere careers.</p>

<p>BTW, what kind of engineers are you referring to? Civil? Mechanical? Chemical? Electrical? Also, Cost of living is higher in NY-- these #s are national averages.</p>

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<p>Cheers, I saw you post the same type of salary figures for engineers on another post earlier today (or yesterday), and I was tempted to ask you this question then. I am curious - do you mean $125 to $150 k in 10 years in today’s dollars (e.g. engineers with 10 years experience are making this much now) or are you saying that current graduates will be making that salary in 10 years, with inflation counted in? </p>

<p>Because I know for a fact that most engineers with 10 years experience are making nowhere near that salary. My husband is an engineer with a top compnay with over 30 years experience - he is a manager at this time - and I personally know the approximate salaries of good engineers with various amounts of experience. They are not as high as you have stated. Maybe you are talking about a different field of engineering? What kinds of “firms” do the engineers of your acquaintance work for? “Engineer” is a very all-encompassing career title, with many different fields and many different types of employment situations.</p>

<p>Edit: jym and I cross posted with similar thoughts!</p>

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<p>yup- motherof 2-
Looks like I was editing my post as you were typing yours! Even with a Masters degree or Ph.D., I don’t know how many will command the salaries that Cheers is suggesting. If the field were really that lucrative, the US would probably not be needing to import engineers from other countries as they have been.</p>

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<p>I am refering to Structural, Civil, Mechanical, Geotechnical ( a seriously interesting career btw), Electrical, Optical on East and West Coast and overseas–upper level project managers. A kid who gets into Cornell engineering is very very talented, folks–and very ambitious. They picked him becuase they thought he could a) do the program and b) make a great career for himself. That’s why their grads have such high starting salaries.</p>

<p>I posted the Cornell stats for Stuck–because that’s the school he’s considering. The stats I posted were right off the Cornell website–those ARE the salaries for Cornell 2005 grads. If you don’t believe the published facts, call Cornell up–or send them your stats. Don’t flame me.</p>

<p>For the husbands that aren’t earning anywhere near $150K after 30 years–do they have Cornell degrees? Are they operating their own businesses? I never said that Stuck should graduate and get into a comapny and stay there for 30 years. I’ve repeatedly said that the best money is in owning your own company.</p>

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<p>gee cheers, I looked around onthe link you gave and what I found was this <a href=“http://www.engr.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/students/upload/CCSPstGradRept04.pdf[/url]”>http://www.engr.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/students/upload/CCSPstGradRept04.pdf&lt;/a&gt; that says the average starting salary for Cornell engineering students in 2002-2004 was around $50K. I looked at the preliminary 2005 figures and the highest figures were in the “technology” area of engineering, if I read that right. Other salaries in the 2005 engineering grads werent as high. And if I recall (the program kept freezing my computer) the percent of students that responded was pretty low. Gosh Cheers… you seem a bit testy these days. No one is flaming you-- just asking questions.</p>

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<p>Cheers - I didn’t say how much my husband is earning after 30 years. I said that I knew the salaries of people he worked with with ten years experience and they were nowhere near that high. Where did I ever say how much my husband is making? Also, FWIW, my husband has a Princeton degree, if that has any bearing on this conversation. I do not think most engineers are operating their own businesses after ten years, regardless of where they went to school. The ones I know who have their own business or are consultants have many years of experience in a specific area, which makes them very valuable. But you have to build this experience over time - being smart and talented is not enough alone.</p>

<p>Also, here is the salary data for starting engineers from a general website I found “Job web”. This is stated to be a general range, and it says starting salaries can be higher or lower. So Cornell is at the higher end of average, and students from many good schools can expect similar salaries. </p>

<p>Engineering
Chemical 52,000 - 57,600<br>
Civil 40,000 - 47,000<br>
Computer 50,000 - 56,000
Electrical/Electronic 49,000 - 56,000<br>
Mechanical 47,000 - 54,240 </p>

<p>Please do not take this post as “flaming”. It is just that it is a topic which I actually know something about, just as you do.</p>

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<p>

With all due respect, SS, I think that is a fantasy…</p>

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<p>

So is the worst. </p>

<p>For everyone successfully running their own business and making a ton of money, there are probably half a dozen others who are barely able to keep their heads above water or have businesses fail for a variety of reasons. It can be rewarding, but it’s a very precarious route to go, with lots of ups and downs.</p>

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<p>Well, it is pretty much exactly how I remember my MIT years… and how my best friend’s daughter describe’s Reed… and what we felt about Oberlin and Vassar (though I am sure there is more talk about clothes and celebs everywhere these days!) And it pretty much describes my son’s crowd… only take it down a notch or two since they know less… and throw in more punk music and stage crew and local politics… wait, is John Stewart a celeb?</p>

<p>And the kids i know who went to Haverford and Swarthmore and Rice and Smith and U. Rochester within the last 4 years are pretty much like that too.</p>

<p>S</p>

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<p>silver senior</p>

<p>And Carleton and Grinnell and Pomona, etc., etc…!!!</p>

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<p>fengshui-- i know you’re not UMD bashing :slight_smile: i think it was the general idea of the thread combined with your specific example that sort of set my mind whirling. interestingly enough, before i had given UMD a chance, i actually almost “shrugged it off because it’s in my backyard”, [backyard being 2.5 hrs away but in-state] but i fell in love with it when i visited.</p>

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<p>Lindz, try TWENTY :D</p>

<p>And silver, punk music and fashion = <3 <3 <3</p>

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<p>calmom, let’s make a deal. You promote the precarious side effects, the cautious side of life and the safe choices and I’ll promote the risk taking. I’ve lived my professional life taking risk after risk after risk–agaisnt all odds too. I’ve gotten to travel and live all over the world and earned very good money while designing and building architecture–my passion. I’ve sent my boys around the world and to the best private schools in the world–without aid. I am a self-made person and I know something about how to turn yourself into a successful business owner. Allow me to express myself please. If you want to effectively contradict me at every turn, post some examples form your own life about how a cautious, risk-adverse life has benefitted you.</p>

<p>Sorry Mother of Two, I misread your post. You had me worried about your hubby of 30 years. I am sure he makes much much more than $125k. Did he take out loans for Princeton? I noted that the starting Cornell salaries rose from $51k to $56 k in 2005. I work with lots of engineers and the best ones;ie Cornell type grads; make great great money.</p>

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<p>Cheers, do you also work with great engineers from less elite schools that are doing well?</p>

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<p>Cheers, I have no idea who you think is making $150K after ten years, but I know plenty of engineers who make well less than that, and we are not in a little podunk town but in the heart of the northeast.</p>

<p>We also know people who made millions in the 90’s, with the dotcom boom. Lucky for them. Than things went bust…gotta feel a little sorry for all those 22 year old millionaires (who are now in their 30’s!).</p>

<p>The rest are making decent salaries, but no one is getting rich being an engineer, particularly living in a high COL area like I do.</p>

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<p>I must be reading something wrong in the Cornell link. When I look at the preliminary numbers for 2005 from the link provided <a href=“http://www.engr.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/students/upload/Prelim05.pdf[/url]”>http://www.engr.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/students/upload/Prelim05.pdf&lt;/a&gt; I see mean and median starting salaries in the forties. The only salaries at $56k that I saw were out west. Now I absolutely am not looking for a fight. All I am saying is that these preliminary salaries, as provided by the graduates, don’t seem to be all that different from the national averages. I also found it interesting that an equal percent (19) were in the work force in the field of engineering after getting a Cornell eng. degree as went on to law school with the same degree!</p>