<p>So this is genuinely a question for my sis and not me. Although I’ve wondered about it too for my classes, but there’s less pressure oftentimes since the curves we have in my field aren’t fixed bell shaped curves with must-fails. </p>
<p>But for those of you guys in tough pre-med classes with curved grades where the distribution is a typical bell curve (bottom 20% or so fails or gets very bad grades), how do you handle the dilemma of choosing to help another student or not? </p>
<p>My sister asked me about this recently during a drive and I was wondering what people’s philosophies and thoughts are on this matter. Thanks.</p>
<p>Both my Ds worked in cooperative study groups throughout undergrad and each found it quite beneficial. </p>
<p>In part because if your group is more or less evenly balanced in terms of ability, there’s usually someone in your group who can ‘get’ the problem that eludes you no matter hard you think about it. In part because different people approach the same problem/concept differently and it’s useful to be exposed to other ways of seeing the same problem/concept. In part because in teaching/explaining a problem or concept to someone else, it consolidates and reinforces your own knowledge. </p>
<p>D1 and D2 also shared class notes with members of their study groups and occasionally with other students. (D2 was a paid note-taker for the disability office.)</p>
<p>But, they drew the line at letting people copy homework solutions. (Technically, copying homework is plagarism and while it’s unusual for a college to pursue academic dishonesty charges for homework, it has been known to happen.)</p>
<p>FWIW, at D1’s medical school there’s an emphasis is on cooperative and small group learning so knowng how to work equitably in a group is a valuable skill.</p>
<p>~~~~~</p>
<p>And one final thought, lending an occasional helping hand to fellow student costs you nothing and allows you to be a ‘good guy’–and it’s very unlikely that simply explaining a idea or sharing notes one off with another student is going to significantly change his grade or your grade. It’s what between your own ears that counts on the exam.</p>
<p>Helping others is the ethical/moral thing to do. But there’s a fine line between helping and cheating. For instance, you can collaborate on problem sets since most professors allow that. But you shouldn’t let others copy your answers from the problem sets. Choosing to not help and watch somebody fail is against all moral and religious values. </p>
<p>Either way, most college courses are heavily weighted on exams and there is no way you can help another student on an exam anyway.</p>
<p>Very good pt about the copying of HW techncially being plagarism. Although i agree it’s rare enforced and professors may even realize it goes on quite often (which is why they also often say explicitly that grp work is OK on HW). …Still…I hadn’t thought of it that way before, lol. </p>
<p>Ok…here’s my issue. Suppose you help some Student A. In your curved class, there are no objective grades - it’s all relative to how your PEERS DO. So it’s a relational thing. </p>
<p>Now, suppose you yourself are gunning for an A and were prepared and worked hard and then you helped Student A and she/he ended up scoring higher than you overall. I know it may be rare…but suppose that one factor ended up dropping you outside of the A bracket, from her/him raising the curve with a better performance, and now you’re stuck with an A- in a crucial pre-med class? </p>
<p>I guess those situations are ones that my friends and I have talked about before. …Would you still do it then if you knew that could/would happen? :)</p>
<p>I would help because I am human. I believe that even though helping him/her may boost his/her grade, it will not surpass mine because I would still have a better understanding of the material.</p>
<p>I would still help and I am 99.9% sure both my kiddos would answer the same way. Why? Because it’s the right thing to do. Being a humane and humanistic individual is more important than a grade. </p>
<p>Life is just not so competitive that the difference between a single A and an A- is going to be the ‘make-or-break’ factor for your lifetime success. </p>
<p>(Esp. when it comes to medical school. How you behave as an ethical and humane person is more important than any single academic grade. Adcomms know this–which is why the personal interview is the biggest factor in gaining a medical school acceptance. Medicine is, after all, a helping profession.)</p>
<p>I also believe in a kind of karma—you get what you give. If behave boorishly and selfishly, then that’s what you reap.</p>
<p>I am not going to seek out students who are struggling and help them nor would I spend so much time helping them that I didn’t study what I needed to, but if someone came up and asked me for help with something reasonable, I’m not going to say no. I will one day be the student asking for help and it would be awful if no one helped me because they were too concerned about the fact that I might eventually know more than they do, so I want to do my part to ensure that environment doesn’t exist.</p>
<p>I’m going to offer ONE final perspective/point. 
</p>
<p>This one is something I’ve talked to professors and friends about quite a lot. Do you not feel that a person should be able to handle their academics and learn on their own to do well in medical school? If a person can’t handle their work in undergrad, then would that not be a sign that they’d not do so well in med. school either? </p>
<p>If so, then would helping that person actually hurt them, b/c if they do well they may think they’re CUT OUT for that type of work and continue on…and then when they’re in situations where they can’t get help from others, then they may struggle or do poorly and possibly even flunk out later down the road. </p>
<p>One of my current professors hasn’t actually said this to our class, but definitely gives off that type of attitude. He gets mad when questions are asked in class unless they are genuinely difficult ones. But if a student asks are relatively simple question…sometiems even a moderately tough one (depending on his mood), he’ll get upset and let you know by word choice and tone that he expects that you can get the answer yourself and people can feel embarassed in class. </p>
<p>But, some feel it’s a form of tough love, as in he wants you to see what you’re good at and what you’re not and not hold your hand doing all the work for you only to give you the wrong impression that you truly are cut out for something. …He’d rather you also figure out an answer by working hard at it rather than just asking w/o putting in lots of work to try to get it yourself. </p>
<p>I can see that line of reasoning actually. But that coupled with the curved class issue makes this question a tough one. </p>
<p>I know, for example, if I attend law school that I’d be in this situation too…you are ranked in law school against your entire class and jobs after graduation are dependent on your grades (and usually only the best student in law get jobs)…so there’s a lot at stake. </p>
<p>I haven’t formed a solid opinion/philosophy ono all this, but still making up my mind. I usually am a careful helper, lol. I refuse to do someone’s work for them if I know they’ve been lazy or highly suspect it. …And in other cases it’s highly situational. I think overall I tend to lean more towards the don’t help group…although I have helped in the past. I’m jsut very picky with my helping, lol :)</p>
<p>"how do you handle the dilemma of choosing to help another student or not? "
-there was no dilemma for my D. She simply helped wo many that she usually had the same line as prof. after class. It led to the best job on campus - SI for Gen. Chem prof. She had a job for 3 years, did not have to prep. Chem section of MCAT and got the leadership medal and awesome LOR from prof. who wholeheartedly praised her for improving GPA in his class. In addtion, she was able to greatly improve her communication skills as she was teaching up to 40 kids in her sessions. Overall, only very positive experience helping others, there is nothing negative about it. As a reference, D. had just regular Chem. in HS, AP was not offerred. She ended up helping many who had AP Chem. Imagine also how this job stand on Med. School application in comparison to other potential jobs on UG campus.
NEVER HESITATE HELPING OTHERS. You will gain much more than you give.</p>
<p>brownug,</p>
<p>completely disagree with your presented perspective. Most GOOD professors know that their method of teaching the material isn’t going to work for everyone; and therefore, it says nothing about a person if they don’t get it from that.</p>
<p>As someone in medical school, let me tell you that, yes, there is a lot of self-directed learning but nothing says you have to do it on your own. Many of my classmates study in groups, and on the medical team you work as a group to solve the patient’s problems. No one cares how the material gets there, as long as you know it when you need to.</p>
<p>med school is a very collaborative environment. at my school, we all help each other out, share study guides, upload things on dropbox, etc</p>
<p>My experience echoes iwannabebrown’s and bigreddawgie’s.</p>
<p>Here’s one example I’m sure NONE of you guys would do though lol. I had a classmate in my math class who always asked every single Friday when HW was due for the answers to a few problems…sometimes a whole section…b/c he was a partier. This was a curved class. </p>
<p>I do draw the line and do not help those I know don’t help themselves and just want answres. Free points they didn’t earn and that will raise the curve and maybe hurt others who did put in the work. :)</p>
<p>Yeah, but you’re not describing “helping” with that example, you’re describing cheating. No one would doubt you that cheating is inherently wrong.</p>
<p>Ditto Kristen, I wouldn’t do that even when it wasn’t curved.</p>
<p>And as I mentioned above-- copying homework sets is plagarism and a variety of academic dishonesty. (And frankly, something you should have learned is wrong back in high school.)</p>
<p>"Here’s one example I’m sure NONE of you guys would do though lol. I had a classmate in my math class who always asked every single Friday when HW was due for the answers to a few problems…sometimes a whole section…b/c he was a partier. This was a curved class. "</p>
<p>-Helping is not giving the answer. Helping is explaining how o reach the correct answer. And while doing that, you have a grat chance to review material / problem and improve your communication skills. Also lazy bum will realize that you are not going to give him an answer, and he might not bother you again.</p>
<p>But, what if you “help” him enough that he does improve his grade? And this was a party guy, who was irresponsible. (Note: I purposely tried to paint the worst possible case…well a real one at least.)</p>
<p>And suppose there was another studious person, who played by the rules and worked as hard as they could and for whatever reason didn’t ask others or seek help (like maybe they were too busy to ask for help or too shy or what have you). Now, let’s further suppose the party guy beats out the hard working quiet study girl, b/c you helped the irresponsible guy and bailed him out. </p>
<p>All very hypothetical, but could also happen as well. How would you feel? Is that fair? </p>
<p>I know for me that I’m more likely to help someone who has done the work, because they’re doing their part. Also, it’s easier to help them because you don’t have to explain so much. </p>
<p>…Now I see what you mean by saying helping isn’t giving the answer (or should be)…but helping someone who’s literally done NO work is sort of giving them the answers to some stuff right? Maybe you don’t tell them the exact answer, but if you’re explaining stuff to them that they SHOULD have read (like from the basics and ground up) or could have figured out easily if they read, then that’s like giving them freebie info. </p>
<p>That’s essentially what happend with the party guy in my class. He would flat out tell us at times that he didn’t read or had read really fast ON HIS WAY to class. I knew for sure he was looking for a bailout. He wanted me to do the work FOR HIM - even if not all of it, at least some of it. He wasn’t looking for a hint or a general approach to problem solving that would give him insight into the problem. Rather, this person was wanting me to do work for him if that makes sense.</p>
<p>He can’t make you do the work for him unless you willingly do the work for him. For instance, you just give him an overview of the book - an abridged version. You and everybody else who read the book will know more and the specifics. For instance, he asks “what is this chapter about?” You say, “Thermodynamics” He says, “what about thermodynamics?” At this point, you say “read the damn book” (pardon my french).</p>
<p>By the way, in your little scenario, the party guy deserved to beat the quiet girl because he was WILLING to ask for help. As I said above, he shouldn’t be gettin any specific info, but if anybody asks for help, then he/she should receive it. This is reflected in the real world of medicine. Imagine an OR. There are a team of surgeons working on a coronary bypass surgery. Surgeon A doesn’t know how he/she should make the suture for best recovery time for the patient. If the party guy was surgeon A, he would ask one of the other surgeons how to do it. The patient recovers in optimal time and everybody is happy. Now, what if quiet girl was surgeon A? She doesn’t ask for help and makes the suture whereever she thinks is best, even though she doesn’t have sufficient knowledge to do so. Soon after surgery, the suture ruptures and the patient dies. Clearly, in this case, the quiet girl is NOT qualified to become a physician. Medicine is a field where lifelong learning is required. You MUST ask for help if you don’t have sufficient knowledge. Party guy will ask for help; quiet girl won’t. </p>
<p>Even if you help the party guy out, there’s no way he’ll pass his exams without having read the specific information in the book. He definitely won’t pass the residency part of medical school where that knowledge is not tested on anymore, but applied. So, your conflict over helping the party guy is moot.</p>