zappos- a lesson on radical HR experiments

I always marvel at silicon valley companies. pay and benefits aside…the cool over the top offices and onsite perks are really neat. but sometimes these companies try something extra radical or weird when it comes to talent management and it goes “bad”

when I read about this when it first came out I did not see the zappos experiment as bold or cutting edge concept.they could have asked me before they did and I would tell them for free it is a bad idea!

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/after-a-radical-management-experiment-the-zappos-exodus-continues/?smid=li-share&_r=1

do you think zappos can stop the brain drain or has the snowball started to roll to fast?

I’m not sure I “get it” after skimming the article. Is the idea that everyone works as a team with no leaders (bosses/managers)? Sounds like a rudderless ship. Do corporate goals, visions, objectives, plans, etc get communicated and actually worked toward - or can I define my own priorities? I’m with @zobroward - bad idea!

Yeah, that explains alot. Haven’t had good experiences with Zappos for some reason.

momofadult—I guess it is kind of like free range kids.

Yet another piece of inept reporting from NYT that many fell for - Oohhh, if it is in NYT, it must be true. Just read the comments… I am not going to regurgitate what has already been said. Arseholes need not stay - and they left. The structure is not a complete anarchy as depicted by the NYT - there is a system of reporting and accountability.

I have a good friend whose son worked there (he gave me lots of good discount codes). He wound up leaving and was not a fan of the new system, but it was NOT total anarchy. It was a very strange work environment, though, and it was hard to advance. He was young and moved on. They could work anywhere in the building- on treadmills, on sofas etc. That part was fun. The hard to advance part and not really understanding the organization was not as fun.

Is “Holacracy” a portmanteau for
“whole lotta crap I see”

I love Zappos as a company,so much so that I have VIP status, this girl has ordered a ton of shoes from them

It’s a big risk to be so radical and it looks like they lost big. Usually you see restructuring when a business is trying to fix a problem, not just change for changes sake. We had a turnover issue a few years ago and I looked at everything. We ended up really tightening down specific job functions, goals and I changed some managers. I make most decisions thinking what I’d want if I worked for me.

That company who paid everyone 70k fell apart, I knew that would happen, overpaying has been just as disastrous to my company as under paying.

eyemamom 100% agreed!
other than the 70k being unrealistic , it had an unintended consequence that never occurred to me ( not an angle I thought of…and it is psychology/hr 101…I still missed it…lesson learned)…folks who had been loyal hard working employees making 70k got pissed that new hires would get what they were getting without earning their stripes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/a-company-copes-with-backlash-against-the-raise-that-roared.html?_r=0

not to mention this

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/gravity-payments-ceo-sued-by-brother/

This is nothing unusual, there are all kinds of management theories about the ideal workplace and how the traditional hierarchical workplace constrains creativity and thinking “outside the box”, whereas the kind of ‘collaborative’ environment they are trying at Zappos is the answer. The problem is that while there is truth to the hierarchical model having problems,for example bosses who don’t see value in employees stretching their wings, or the concept of turf protection (so if a design engineer had an idea for a better way to produce a product on an assembly line, they would be slapped around because that is 'process engineering), that also leaves out that collaborative environments like that still need structure, they still need objectives and more importantly, people pulling together, which isn’t often the case from what I have read. It assumes that everyone is curious about things outside their purview, and more importantly, feel comfortable going outside their area, and often the other problem is people don’t necessarily know what they are pulling towards. Among other things, it takes management that can both model the new structure, and also help train people into thinking around the new idea. Problem is you get a ‘visionary’ CEO who gets a brainfart, and they just dump it out there and say “here is the future”…and it often falls flat on his face, because what is a great idea in his/her head turns out to be that, good in his head.

It was the same way when the whole "team’ structure was the big paradigm being pushed as the savior for all ills. It left out the problems with teams, that often the ‘team’ didn’t control its own operations, or employees worked on the team but reported to a functional area, or more importantly, how to compensate people on the team. If you give ‘team awards’ and base everything on the functioning of the team, it means those who killed themselves to get things done end up getting the same thing that those who slacked off or coasted did, because in the oft implemented version of this, the individual basically didn’t exist. It was basically a modern day version of the socialist ideal, and it ends up not working because the major contributors end up feeling like they carry the load for those being carried along.

I have heard of the everyone gets X, that again is a modern version of what Marx proposed. In theory it sounds great, it sounds like it would get rid of jealousy and wage envy, it would mean you knew where you stood, but the problem is that it also quite honestly takes away incentive, it is much like the unionized model of working where pay is based on seniority. If someone is really talented, and really puts out, they are getting the same thing as someone who works 9-5 with an hour lunch each day, and what incentive would they have to do that? more importantly, it kind of limits any sense of mobility or achievement, it makes everyone into a member of the proletariat, rather than feeling like what they are doing is appreciated.

The other problem is you have to sell people on change. Something like 90% of restructurings that work are when a company has its back against the wall, and in large part it is because people at that point know there is a problem and are willing to fix it. A lot of places jump in and assume everyone will just follow, but it doesn’t work like that.

Personally, my take is that the hierarchical model has problems with it, it is true that for example in most corporations “thinking outside the box” is not job 1, and also that in a lot of cases you have a lot of timeservers and people who advanced because they had rabbis, not because they necessarily were all that good. Likewise, rigid hierarchy and siloing of tasks doesn’t work well, but the key there is in changing the mentality of the managers to allow freedom to collaborate and such.Big companies do do that, 3M is legendary for it, the problem is most companies are still often run by 19th century models of feudalism or something akin to that. Rather than rewarding outside thinking and collaboration, they often penalize people who don’t fit into the managers narrow definition of the job, and if companies are serious about change it is the ones running things who have the biggest job, it is to reward those who follow the new ideas and encourage their employees, and it also is to correct and if necessary, get rid of those who insist on the old ways.

Two words: startup atmosphere. The system is very typical for startups - there are very few layers of middle management, so yes, not too many opportunities for climbing up the ladder. It is definitely not for everyone, but as long as the compensation is good and the perks are nice, it works for a certain type of folks who prefer hands-on, outside the box problem solving on the work floor to advancement to the top management (e.g., some pharma co’s solve this by creating separate career tracks for scientists (with very few middle managerial steps) and for corporate managers (with lots of little middle positions).

Note that what follows below is NOT about Zappos. The idea of paying new hires the same as existing workers is nothing new - it happens in companies all the time. If you work in HR, “salary compression” should be a familiar term. :wink: However, when it is done openly, it is quite stupid, because it creates resentment.

@bunsenburner:
What you say is true about a startup, that there isn’t the delineation of roles, but startups also have their own structure and there definitely is someone in charge there, and the ‘creative anarchy’ at a startup still has roles, in a pharm startup an admin isn’t going to be helping design a new drug or a new gene sequence, and there is usually a guiding vision from managers there (my current employer was a startup when I joined them). The problem is Zappos is not a startup, and taking a place that is not one and ‘going backwards’ doesn’t work well. For example, the ‘evil middle manager’, when the paradigm back in the 80’s was to blame all the problems on middle managers, and they needed to ‘push down responsibility’ on the workers and get rid of the middle managers, they found out pretty quickly that middle managers were not the hold down of creativity, but rather they often knew how a lot of things worked and connected with others (matrix management), and without that they found out how much was lost. (And I think you said basically the same thing I am). One of the problems with a Zappos like kind of thing is what are you trying to achieve? With a startup, especially these days, it usually is building a product and brand so that the equity workers have in the company become worth something when someone buys them (IPO’s are a lot less common these days as the end game for startups). In a corporate world of an existing company, what is the vision, what is the reason for anarchy?

Plus working for a startup, while it is fun, does get tiring after a while, because you are expected to do so much. Among other things, eventually even the 20 something year olds are looking for more stablity, and things like benefits and such, you won’t get at a startup. Part of the problem with a zappos is there is no clearcut way to advance (at a startup, you don’t care, as long as you are paid decently and you have the target of your equity in the company), and people like to have some sort of path. Paying everyone the same doesn’t exactly give people a target, and people do want a sense of some sort of career track. I think that jobs that allow people to do a lot of different things in doing their jobs are great, and I hate narrow job definitions, but having a track where your experience and contributions are rewarded is important, Zappos if I read the way they are structured is true, is kind of like working in a higher paying job version of McDonalds, where no matter how good you are, you aren’t going to advance far.

Musicparent, first of all, selling shoes and making drug molecules are different beasts. “in a pharm startup an admin isn’t going to be helping design a new drug or a new gene sequence.” But vice versa works… Trust me, I was handling a lot of admin duties in some startups in addition to doing lab work (we just did not hire admins). :wink:

Second, the article perfectly masks the fact that Zappos does have structure (read the comments section). It is just less layered than it used to be, and it is not for everyone.

A third point. Some people do not give a rat’s rear about “advancing”

  • I worked with very talented PhDs who did not care about corporate ladders; all they wanted was to be creative on their terms within the company’s goals. That place was very successful in bringing innovations to life. As soon as corporate goons moved in and started to “rigidize” the system, these folks became very unhappy, and the innovative pace came to a standstill.

So it looks like the CEO is trying to turn back the clock and return the startup spirit - it is not an easy task within an established organization!

a stereotypical startup culture is not a place I would thrive. to many egos and no structure. I like change and fresh ideas, but I think many start ups fail because they do not have proper organization and the right people in the right jobs. (of course $$$$ burns up quick too)

A young woman I’m close to interviewed and was offered a a position at Zappos last year. I sent her a similar article and she wasn’t concerned. They flew her out, paid for her hotel and meals. She interviewed I think with 5 people. She would have loved to have taken the job but the salary wasn’t enough to uproot her life. Nor did her long term mate want to move to Vegas.
All 4 companies she has worked for have been a few steps up from start up but all have had unconventional styles. Or at least unconventional to “us” older folks. What really surprises me is how casual the work attire has become.

$$$ fizzling out plus VCs wanting too much too soon is THE reason startups fail at a (still) startup stage.

I am not saying that I am in love with the Zappos experiment, but the NYT article is full of sensationalism. Failure? As one of the comments pointed out, the “exodus” is 4%, because the other 14% left as soon as they were given the choice.

@mom60, I would not want to live in Vegas either.

@bunsenburner:
If 14% took the buyout, it is likely that many of them did so because they saw what was coming and decided they didn’t like it, unless Zappos was an unhappy place before, that percent leaving when given a buyout offer says either the company was in trouble or they didn’t like the way it was going (I would expect around 5% if it were normal chuff), so the Times isn’t entirely wrong.

It isn’t so much that the career track is a great thing, it is that many of these experiments end up a hybrid mess that ends up hurting the very people they want to nurture. Want a classic example, backed by personal experience and case study? They create this kind of environment, but when it comes to rewards and such they don’t bother to think about it, assuming that ‘job satisfaction’ is all someone needs. It is true that especially with technical people, but it is true across the board, that feeling that you are doing what you love is important, that no amount of money will make a crappy job feel better, but compensation and rewards can take a positive job they love and turn it negative (the axiom is that compensation at best is neutral to job satisfaction). What ends up happening is that the motivated people love such a setup (like I said, having worked at a startup, being able to work free of the bureaucratic crap that big organizations love, and being able to do a lot of different things, always appealed to me, it is why do the job I do and not coding), and they are the ones that 80% of the time are really keeping things percolating, but then when it comes time for compensation they find out that they might as well coast, that either the rewards go to idiots with titles, or the guy in the mail room gets the same thing as the person who is developing new drugs for the company or is acting as a mega matrix manager kind of thing (I am leaving Zappos out of this at this point, because I have not read a case study about them, and I trust magazine and newspaper articles about as much as I do Fox News).

When you re-engineer work environments, what often happens, too, is that it is the vision of the person doing it, and generally it reflects what drives him/her. Among other things, a really flexible organization will look at the factors that motivate people, and find ways to motivate people more on an individual basis. A working mom might appreciate the flexibility of working from home or working around kid’s schedules (or a working dad at that), a geekologist might be motivated by working with cutting edge technology and being given time to ‘play’ with new things, someone else who is more business focused may be motivated by being allowed to help design products or services as well as the tech stuff, and so forth. It isn’t that the old hierarchical structures are the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is that all structures have tradeoffs, restrictions, and any of them requires a design that a)allows for flexibility b)acknowledges that people are driven by different things and c)have to find a way to reward people in ways that motivates them, and more importantly, that things like perks and pay/compensation reflect their value to the company, the most satiated geek person may not care about climbing the corporate ladder, but they will care when they find out that simply because someone has a title, whose value to the company may not be worth as much as their role, is taking home a lot more. I have been there, and it is one of the biggest negatives in working places, outside of totally draconian management (the idiot manager, for example, who is proud of his 20% turnover rate each year). Being able to work on what you want, design your own job, is great and wonderful (and I am not saying that sarcastically), what I am saying is that many of them fail because they forget to make everything else in line with that.

In a restructuring, 14% would be within the normal range. Zappos did not simply kicked them out - they were given an option to leave with generous payout. Much better than many other companies doing the same thing! Not the “exodus” and fiasco as the NYT sensationalist article portrays it to be.

It would be normal for a restructuring, but most restructurings happen when the company is in some sort of trouble, so people in that case would have good reason to leave. Zappos from what I can tell was not in financial trouble, but rather the CEO decided to shake things up, change things, for the sake of change. For restructurings where it is not about trying to save the company, the rates I remember from case studies when they offer buyouts is around 5% or so.