A number of liberal arts colleges seeking to attract engineering types are touting their “3+2 Programs” – typically the idea is that you do your first three years at the LAC, majoring in physics or something similar. Then you transfer to a different school (e.g. Case Western Reserve, Washington University, Columbia, Caltech) for two more years (so, five total) and graduate with a BA from the LAC and a BS in Engineering from the second school.
And here’s how the College of Wooster describes the option:
I can see a number of problems with this for most students.
you start with a group of classmates and then leave your school 3/4 of the way through, missing out on senior year/graduation/etc.
the challenge of integrating socially and academically into what is likely to be a much larger institution (except for Caltech), possibly in a big city, with all this might entail (how do you find roommates? how do you find study partners? did you miss the boat on joining key clubs? etc.)
It’s five years of undergrad tuition at private schools instead of four (and the loss of a year of earning potential).
There could be tricky financial aid implications.
Acceptance to these programs isn’t guaranteed.
Setting all those challenges aside – I’m curious about whether there’s a way to determine whether students are actually doing these programs – or whether it’s basically a fancy marketing ploy? Is there some central location (similar to College Transitions) where one could determine which schools actually have a critical mass of students participating in 3+2 programs? Is it something one could determine from the common data sets?
(Obviously one could ask each individual school. I’m looking for something more centralized.)
Thanks!
PS: there’s another program, run by Dartmouth, which offers a 2+1+1+1 (meaning that students do 2 years at their first college, junior year at Dartmouth, senior year back at their home college, and then a fifth year at Dartmouth. I guess this allows students to leave when their friends are studying abroad and then return to their home college in time to graduate with their friends. That seems marginally less disruptive/disorienting than the usual 3+2. Still expensive though…)
There have been extensive discussions in the engineering forum. For many reasons, well described in those threads. I’ll link one below, but there are MANY others.
Thanks. I was hoping not to create anything too redundant – mostly I’m looking for actual data, which I think could be a useful addition to the general discussion.
(Disclosure: our son is using the idea of a 3+2 to rationalize applying to at least one school that otherwise doesn’t make a ton of sense. Being able to show him how practicable this actually is would be useful. And I’m trying to keep an open mind but am not conceptually a fan, as is probably clear from my opening post.)
Yes, he can, and I’ll have him do this. I was thinking that more generally it would be good to have a thread with data from these programs. I’m curious, for example, if there are any schools out there that are obvious outliers – e.g. it is more culturally normative for students to do a 3+2, or they’ve established a regular pipeline to a particular school/program (and conversely, are there partner schools with a large # of incoming 3+2 students such that there is an actual cohort and an easier social/academic transition?)
Eyeballing the gear, there are definitely at least handfuls from some colleges, but it doesn’t look like a huge number from any one, and conversely at least one from a whole lot.
My sense is WashU’s is one of the bigger programs. Indeed, they say they have 300+ students.
In these posts from CC, a parent wrote favorably about his son’s experience in the combined program with Dartmouth: Columbia 3+2 Program Benefits? - #4 by akin67 and Hamilton rigor - #13 by akin67. The son’s cohort at Dartmouth included students from Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Vassar, Colby and Hamilton.
At least there’s a cohort once you get there – and they seem to give them special housing. I wonder though–which school does one end up identifying with in the end?
“There are 50–60 students on the engineering email list.”
“Roughly 0–3 students per year apply to the Washington program.”
As a “2” school with about 100 “3” schools affiliated with it, that suggests that an average of 3 from each “3” school (or 1.5 per year from each “3” school) do transfer.
FAQs | WashU McKelvey School of Engineering says that transfer admission within the 3+2 context is not super competitive (3.25 overall and math/science GPA and fulfillment of course requirements), although it can be seen as comparable to the secondary admission requirements to major at some state flagship engineering divisions.
For what it is worth, I remember seeing some WashU 3+2 students talking about their program, and the big takeaway for me is they were often BUSY. I gather it depends on what transfers, but apparently they are usually doing a packed schedule to finish up the degree requirements.
I didn’t get the sense they really felt socially isolated, though. Just focused on making it work.
WUStL engineering major degree programs contain significant amounts of engineering course work in the first two years, most of which is unlikely to be available at “3” schools. See Box for an example. A 3+2 transfer to WUStL will need to “catch up” on many of these courses as well as taking the courses listed for the last two years of the program.
We initially looked at many LACs because that was the type of school my child wanted, and when engineering came into focus I wanted these 3-2s to be an option because we really loved a few of those non engineering LACs. If you went somewhere like Wooster and got big merit, then the cost would be less bad for the 5 year total cost. But I think for the final two years at the second school, you are not guaranteed any financial aid (although lots of the “2” schools do have need based if you qualify). My student ended up at Lafayette and is in year 2 of engineering there, heading to study abroad in January. We had never heard of Lafayette, honestly it is not well known where we live, and it came on the radar because of “LAC with engineering.” It became the top choice because of a visit and a specific engineering major (Integrative Engineering - Environment/Energy). My student decided if they were getting a BS they should be able to do it in 4 years. I hope that works out - so far so good! But I do understand the appeal of the 3-2 programs because it opens up almost all the schools to you. We had a tour guide at Denison who was a physics major and said a couple of her friends had left to do the 3-2 with Case Western.
I remember you telling me about your son at Lafayette and thinking that he sounded similar in many ways to my kid (albeit maybe more outgoing?) It’s good to know that it’s still going well and that study abroad is an option for engineering majors. I’m super bullish on Lafayette, although it’s not a shoo-in on the admissions front.
One thing I’ve been looking into for some of the non-engineering LACs on our list is total # of students majoring in physics or physics-adjacent fields. Denison had remarkably few. S25 liked the campus and vibe but no engineering + so few physics majors means it’s probably coming off the list.
Seems like a student considering a LAC for 3+2 should also evaluate whether they like the “2” school(s) that they may eventually transfer to in order to complete the 3+2 program with an engineering degree.
A student who does not like the “2” schools probably will not want to transfer away from the “3” school that they like.
Of course, if they like the “2” schools, they can also apply there for the normal 4-year engineering bachelor’s degree programs.
Ah, but therein lies the rub. The “2” schools on tap have consistently lower acceptance rates than most of their partner LACs. WashU, Columbia, and Caltech are particularly hard to access. I think in some ways this is a very expensive version of the community college-to-Cal back door that so many students in California take.
I can’t fathom entering Caltech two years behind the students who started there as first year freshmen. Maybe @aunt_bea could describe what that experience might feel like.
