Yeah, no kidding. My husband and sister both went to Caltech and he sat down with our son the other day to talk him through why attempting to transfer from Occidental seemed like a very tough idea. Building relationships with study partners as a freshman seems essential (and while it’s hard to compare the relative challenge of different undergrad institutions, my sense from them is that Caltech demands consistently more from its students than even a lot peer institutions. My friend who was doing a chem PhD at Harvard told me that the Caltech students seemed demonstrably ahead of everyone else in the program – as if they’d come in with a year or two of grad school already under their belts.)
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Theoretically, because I don’t know this firsthand, at Dartmouth (the 3 and the 5 school), the culture clash should be less severe because their own undergraduates are pursuing the same 5 year degree. My understanding is that the 1,2 and 4 school will give need-based FA for year 3 just as if it were a junior year abroad.
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Not true. From their website:
All engineering majors first earn the Bachelor of Arts (AB) before the Bachelor of Engineering (BE). Many earn both the AB and BE degrees in four years, while others opt to add a fifth year of study.
Bachelor of Arts in Engineering Sciences | Dartmouth Engineering
At Dartmouth, the BE degree is ABET accredited. Bachelor of Engineering | Dartmouth Engineering
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I think you make a really good point that there are small, LAC like, school that still offer a traditional 4 year ABET accredited engineering degree. IMO, I think a student would be better served trying to narrow in on those types of programs rather than a 3+2.
OP - My daughter went to a STEM focused HS. Her peer group all went on to study engineering (or CS). Not one went to a 3+2.
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To add to @circuitrider’s information, this is directly from Dartmouth’s description of the 5-year partner program:
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So I feel like we are in danger of veering into the “just don’t do it” conversation, which is not necessarily a bad conversation in general, but as I understand it the OP is already aware of that conversation and was looking for something different in this thread.
So to maybe get a little back on track–studying that WashU picture I see a cluster of students from Oberlin. And while they are not similarly standing together, I also spotted quite a few kids from F&M scattered around.
These are interesting to me because they are reasonably popular LACs in my circles, and they are known to be among the LACs that are “good for STEM” (sidenote: I think Oberlin’s national branding may not be that way, but at least around here that strong STEM side of Oberlin is a known thing).
OK, so the OP was talking about checking Physics majors, and I think modest expectations for LACs is warranted. But still, according to NCES College Navigator, Oberlin had 17 Physics primary majors in the latest reported cohort. That strikes me as quite good for an LAC. Franklin and Marshall had fewer, 12, under Physics, but they are unusual for an LAC in having a dedicated Astrophysics major, and that was another 5. So also good in my view.
And in fact if you look at this study of the Top PhD Feeders to Physics, per capita version, F&M is on the list at #26, and Oberlin at #30. Not bad:
OK, so obviously this is pretty thin data to go on. But to the extent there is any sort of “pipeline” at all, maybe it is going from “good for STEM” LACs with a decent number of competitive Physics majors (for an LAC) to relatively big partner programs with very transparent admissions requirements, like WashU’s.
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Sorry. I stand corrected. The BE is also 5 years if you do the whole thing at Dartmouth.
There are a few LACs that offer engineering degrees (Lafayette, Bucknell, Union to name a few). If the student is interested in a LAC experience, I would look in that direction rather than a 3-2 program.
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When I think of regular 4-year engineering programs, I think of my friend who was accepted by and subsequently enrolled at UT-Austin. He was not trying to decide between engineering and physics. His quandary was whether to major in engineering or music performance which was his actual passion. He chose music and has not looked back. Nevertheless, I wonder what his decision might have been had he the normal year-and-a-half to make up his mind?
If you mean that he may have had more time to choose while at the “3” school of a 3+2 arrangement, there are some issues here:
- Many “3” schools limit the 3+2 student’s major to something like physics or chemistry (although some do not, as long as the preparatory math and science for engineering transfer is taken).
- Music performance can have very voluminous requirements and prerequisites, so that progressing in both that and engineering prerequisites while undecided between the two can be difficult.
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deleted by poster,
Our son when through this whole thought process…3/2, LAC school with engineering and “standard” engineering program. He became very clear on the path he wanted after visiting, getting a feel for the campuses, engineering facilities and studying their curricula.
It will become apparent to your student too. It’s an expense in time, energy and money, but very informative.
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What are the steps, and what does one end up with after the six years?
LOL. I think I just made up my own program! Deleted.
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In terms of alternative structures, I think the Haverford-Penn program where you do four years* at Haverford and get a Bachelors, then spend 2-3 semesters at Penn and you get a Masters, is a really appealing one:
The “*” is because the only reason this works is while at Haverford, you start actually taking some classes at Penn. Still, you get to stay based at Haverford and graduate with your class.
Obviously this is of limited use to the OP since it only works at that one school, and it is a hard admit. Still, cool to know about.
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College of the Holy Cross has a collaborative accelerated masters program with WPI, similar to the Haveford Penn program. My kid is very interested. WPI Engineering Program
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Indeed. And since this isn’t the cafe, let’s have further answers only respond to the OP’s question.
I know a few kids who are doing/have done this. So far, so good for them. They got the degree they wanted and the experience they wanted. The idea of leaving friends, to one person, can mean the idea of meeting new friends to another person.
I guess in my friends case, the question would be whether the extra 18 months would have helped or precluded him from completing his backup major, had he, as nearly half of all engineering majors do - not continued past year 2?