<p>I just found out that assuming that I get all A’s this semester, the highest possible cumulative GPA I can receive as a graduate is around a 3.69. Do ad-coms look at the difference between the two as just .01? Or is it true that a 3.7 is some sort of ‘magical’ cutoff for t14?</p>
<p>At the moment I’m taking an LSAT course with a very reputable company (TM/PS) and currently am at a 3.63 (I blew my sophomore year).</p>
<p>You’ll find that the median GPA for most t14 schools is a 3.7 or higher, but there is basically no difference in a 3.69 and 3.7. However, you should note that this year, a lot of people with GPA+LSAT at last year’s median are seeing waitlist/rejections, suggesting that many of the t14 are looking for something above the median in one of the two areas. Coupled with a 170+, I think you’ll have a good shot at the lower t14. A little higher (like 172/73) will give you a good shot at everything but HYS, where they seem to focus heavily on GPA.</p>
<p>OK, so if I get a 3.65/3.67+ (hopefully a 3.69) and high 160’s/low 170’s LSAT should I have a shot at Georgetown/Duke/UVA/Cornell? Also, keep in mind that I’m graduating in 3 years and plan on enrolling in a one year master’s program immediately after. So essentially, I can have both a bachelor’s and master’s completed in four years. I would think that would beef up the resume a bit.</p>
<p>Having the master’s degree will add a bit, but nothing is as important as the LSAT/GPA combination and some law schools (particularly NU) look down on younger applicants. Consider the numbers then for some of the lower t14:</p>
<p>Virginia 169, 3.68
NU 170, 3.7
Cornell 167, 3.67
Gtown 169, 3.71
Duke 168, 3.78</p>
<p>Your GPA already will put you below the median (at it at Cornell/UVA) for this year, and I wouldn’t be surprised if numbers shift a bit upward after this year’s cycle. In other words, to have a really good shot at these lower t14 schools, you want to surpass the LSAT median if you want to offset the sub-median GPA. In that case, were I you I’d be aiming for a 171 on the LSAT. Obviously that’s not to say a 168/69 wouldn’t be ok for these schools, but being at both medians puts you in the middle of the pack with the other ~60%+ applicants that are qualified, and at that point you need to try harder to distinguish yourself. Studying hard and getting that extra couple points on the LSAT might save you the trouble of the waitlist/uncertainty. Good luck!</p>
<p>I think the responses you are getting this time around are unduly optimistic—because you are leaving out some very important facts. </p>
<p>Having read your other posts, I think you have VERY little chance of getting into the schools you have targeted unless you score above a 175 on the LSAT. </p>
<p>First, if I read your earlier posts correctly, you’re majoring in advertising. This is the type of vocational major that many law schools dislike.I suspect your 3.69 is not going to be viewed the same as a 3.69 in humanities or social sciences. If I were advising you, I’d tell you to target schools appropriate for someone with whatever LSAT you end up with and about a 3.5. </p>
<p>Second, as I opined before, a master’s is NOT going to help. After reading your other posts, I now know that the master’s you are talking about is one in management from UFlorida. This is, according to the web site, a one year program designed to give liberal arts grads the skills they need to succeed in business. This is not going to help you get into a top law school. And, if you end up with a gpa below the one you have now, it could hurt. (It won’t change your LSDAS gpa; it might just further convince an adcom that advertising is a weak major.)</p>
<p>Please don’t argue with me that at FSU advertising is a tough major. It doesn’t matter what I think; it only matters what adcoms think. If it is, you need to put something in your application which will convince adcoms of that.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, if you are sure you want to go to law school, I think you are wasting a year of your life and the cost of attending by getting a master’s in management. Just my opinion. But…if I were you, I’d go see the pre-law advisor at FSU and ask to see the grids. If those indicate the candidates’ majors, focus on those in programs like advertising.</p>
<p>I’m going to go with brand on this one. I think jonri is a bit too pessimistic. A 169/ 3.6 “should” get you into a T-14. A 171 would make it a sure thing, assuming your application and recs. are good.
My kid has similar stats. 3.7 + and high 160’s on LSAT. Though she has a shot at T-14 acceptance, she will cast a wider net and apply to some schools in the T-25 range too. At this point she may not be applying for two years as she is still in the running for TFA as she made it through the first 2 rounds.</p>
<p>ladi- also don’t be too concerned about Jonri’s characterization about your major. She doesn’t seem to be too thrilled about my kids choice of study either.<br>
I’m still waiting to hear her description of an “ILR” type.</p>
<p>but I will agree with her- if you are definitely going to law school-- is the MA in management helpful/useful?? You may be better off going directly to law school or working for a year instead of going for an MA. Talking to your pre-law advisor at FSU is a good idea.</p>
<p>Bottom line- you really need your actual LSAT score to see what your chances are at a T-14. Good luck.</p>
<p>In response to post #6, an ILR type is someone who is a student in the School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell. To the best of my recollection, the only time I’ve used the phrase on this board was in response to a question from someone who was going to enter ILR who wanted to know if she would be at a disadvantage in applying to YHS law schools vs. students who spent their undergrad years at HYS. In that reply, if my recollection is correct–I didn’t go back and read it–I said that Cornell Law School (like many law schools) tended to favor its own undergrads, particularly ILR types.I do not understand how anyone could POSSIBLY interpret that as meaning that I am not too “thrilled” with IRL majors. I’ve never criticized ILR as prep for law school on or off this board. I certainly don’t put an ILR major in the same category as an advertising major. (As far as I’m concerned, this makes as much sense as the previous attack when I was told to stop thinking that everyone at Harvard College had a 174 LSAT, in response to a post in which I SPECIFICALLY STATED that the median LSAT at Harvard was 166.)</p>
<p>I COMPLETELY agree that my personal opinion of an advertising major doesn’t matter. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT. However, it is my understanding that advertising is viewed as a “soft” major by some top law schools.As I already said, if ladistar thinks that’s unfair, she should make some effort to convince law school ad coms of that fact. That’s a serious comment. Advertising “sounds” like a gut major. If it isn’t at FSU, then ladistar needs to make that clear in her apps.</p>
<p>I am not just saying that my understanding is that advertising is a soft major to be mean to ladistar. I just honestly think that she needs to know that her gpa in advertising will probably be discounted a bit by some law schools and she needs to keep that in mind in deciding where to apply.</p>
<p>Additionally, this is at least the third time that ladistar has posted essentially the same inquiry. I expressed the opinion last time that a master’s degree wasn’t going to help much and others joined the discussion. Ladistar didn’t say what she was getting the major in. However, since then she has posted on another CC board that she plans to get a master’s in management at UF. I really do not think that’s going to do anything to boost her odds.</p>
<p>While I agree that ladistar has to have a LSAT in hand to know her chances, she also needs to know that when she looks at the median UG gpa at law schools, hers may be discounted a bit by some law schools due to her major.</p>
<p>I do think that Jonri does bring up some valid points. All majors in all schools are not created equally and many narrowl focused vocational majors do not provide students with the depth and breadth of writing and critical thinking skills required for law school.</p>
<p>As stated in one of my previous posts, if you have not already done so I would recommend purchasing How to get into Top Law Schools by Richard Montauk. It the book is approximately 500 pages and gives a very comprehensive overview of the college process and discusses applications, essays, LSATs, majors, etc.</p>
<p>Chapter 8 of his book discusses Making the Most of Your Credentials, Montauk states:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>When posed with the question: What factors do you consider when evaluating an undergraduate record admissions officers at various law schools state :
</p>
<p>Section does it Matter what a candidate Major is?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>1.) The problem isn’t the weak nature of “advertising.” Schools are unlikely to treat sociology majors (generally easier) differently than economics (usually harder). The problem is that it is not an academic subject. For example, I would say that finance (hard, vocational) is at a disadvantage relative to history (often easier, but academic). Either way, of course, Jonri is right.</p>
<p>2.) A master’s in basically the same subject will REINFORCE, not detract from, the weakness of your major – but the alternative (doing undergrad in three years) is not a good idea, either. First, it makes your undergraduate track look easy. Second, it makes you younger – I was surprised to hear that this is viewed so negatively, but the opinion is fairly unanimous – both for law school admissions and job-hunting afterwards.</p>
<p>3.) If we’re going to project your eventual LSAT score, I think it’s sensible to start with your SAT score (M+V) and any diagnostic scores you might have on hand and go from there.</p>
<p>4.) It probably is not sensible to use the “if I get all A’s” GPA. It probably is most sensible to start with the GPA you actually have – in this case, 3.63.</p>
<p>call me old fashioned, but I thought some of the responses to the OP were said in an unnecessarily harsh manner. I don’t know whether this environment encourages one to ask questions- or makes one think twice before posting. </p>
<p>I think Sybbie’s reference to the Montauk book is useful and may help you with the Law school application process.</p>
<p>I believe your actual LSAT score will be a more reliable indicator as to what law schools you should apply to. And check with your law school advisor. They should be well equipped to help with the law school admission process.</p>
<p>If OP knows that she wants to attend law school, has she considered:</p>
<p>Just graduating in 4 years and balancing her course work with perhaps a second liberal arts based major/minor or even taking some liberal arts courses involve lots of writing as well as some that involve reading and interpreting text?</p>
<p>Or if she has decided to graudate in 3 years then perhaps she would be better served working a couple of years. Instead of pursing a MA at UF if she wants a masters look at joint MBA/JD programs.</p>
<p>Alright, few things here.</p>
<p>1) I’m not a chick</p>
<p>2) I minored in econ, so I actually had a pretty varied liberal arts courseload throughout school</p>
<p>3) The advertising major at FSU is actually a bit tougher than you might expect. I’ve pretty much always planned on law school, so I just decided to major in something that interested me. As for the difficulty, I undertake in a lot of team projects involving strategy, research, and statistical analysis. But you see, I thought it didn’t matter what you majored in when you get to law school? Every thread I see on the subject here mostly states that it doesn’t matter what you major in, as long as you do well. </p>
<p>I also think that my GPA is a bit misleading. As I noted in my first post, I sucked my sophomore year due to a horrible roommate situation at home, but since then I’ve been on a pretty good upward trend.</p>
<p>4) I’m going for the management degree just in case my legal career doesn’t work out - it shows that I have some wealth of knowledge out of undergrad and it functions as a fall-back option. Plus, it’s a one-year program, so the timing works out really well for me.</p>
<p>5) Did jonri do a search on all of my posts and prepare a biography on me or something?</p>
<p>So anyways, if you really think that I should just stick to UF Law, then just say it straight out. I may not achieve my dreams of a t-14, but at the very least I’m going to apply and give it my best shot.</p>
<p>And jonri - no offense taken. I know you’re probably just trying to help. I’d much rather someone be brutally honest and give me a varying opinion, even if it’s a little harsh. </p>
<p>And thanks to everybody else for their advice as well. This board is a great resource, indeed.</p>
<p>Again, the problem isn’t that a major is easy or hard. The question is whether it’s academic. The advice on these boards says that major doesn’t matter because there’s they’re taking it for granted that everybody’s majoring in an academic subject. Economics, English, history, sociology, physics, psychology, math – in those contexts, major doesn’t matter so long as you do well. But physical education, nursing, advertising, technical writing – these are not good majors, no matter how difficult they might be.</p>
<p>Look, if your numbers are going to crush a schools 75th, then by all means – a major in underwater basketweaving isn’t going to hold you back. But it’s an unanswerable question until we’re looking at an actual LSAT score.</p>
<p>Right ^. Is majoring in advertising going to be some crushing blow to your dreams? Probably not. But I turned down attending a very good business program for undergrad just for this reason: as you get closer to the top in the rankings, schools are less respectful towards pre-professional majors.</p>
<p>I mean, most of the top universities don’t even offer preprofessional majors, which I think is part of the reason why CC doesn’t bother to mention them when we say “Major doesn’t matter.” The only exception I can think of is Princeton’s Finance. Even Wharton designates their degrees as Economics.</p>
<p>so- why are there Schools of Nursing at U Penn, UVA and Duke??
a visual arts major at Duke?? and at the Annenberg School of Communication at UPenn you can take courses in advertising, mass media etc etc. I think many top schools have pre-professional programs- including Cornell’s Hotel school. </p>
<p>Ladi- you have the absolute right attitude. You give the T-14’s your best shot and see what happens. The 25% at 9 of the 14 top schools is 167 or less- with Duke at 165–Mich, NW, Cornell at 166. So if your numbers are somewhere in that range, do the best application you can and apply!!</p>
<p>No one is saying it will be an automatic acceptance to a T-14 if you score in the high 160’s but do not let anyone on these boards discourage you from following your dreams.</p>
<p>Good luck on the LSAT’s as that will be a major factor for admittance. And follow Sybbie’s advice- get the Montauk book (and Anna Ivey guide too). That will give you alot of info as to how to structure your application.</p>
<p>A minority opinion I’m sure… a one year master’s in management is nowhere near as marketable as a reputable two year MBA. I work in corporate HR and see funky master’s degrees all the time; masters in real estate management, master’s in non-profit management, etc. and it always saddens me… these candidates spend half the interview explaining why they didn’t get an MBA instead of getting to talk about their accomplishments. Masters in Public Health- that’s a well regarded, recognized program that means something. MBA, JD, people who will read your resume 10 years from now know what that means. If you’re looking for a back up to a law degree, get yourself an MBA or do one concurrently with law school. If you need to stall for a year before going to law school, do a four year BA and round out your program with courses that interest you. But don’t take an undergrad degree in advertising and pile another pre-professional degree on top of it, before you’ve even gone near the main event, i.e. law school.</p>
<p>Or get a job in advertising??? Wouldn’t that be a more valuable way to spend the year???</p>
<p>We all agree that nobody can tell you your chances until you have your LSAT score in hand. Without one, I wouldn’t tell any one that they don’t have a shot. </p>
<p>I just think that because of your major you are going to need a higher LSAT that you might think looking at the gpa and LSAT stats for top law schools . I think, as I said before, you shuold deduct about .2 from your gpa when looking at the grids. </p>
<p>Some folks do apply to law schools between 14 and 25, so I wanted to tell you that if you don’t get a 175+, you should include some schools further down the totem pole. If you will be happy to go to UF or FSU if you don’t get into T-14, that doesn’t matter. </p>
<p>I thought you were female because your screen name “sounds” female to me. </p>
<pre><code>I clicked on your post history because I thought I had read a “chances” post from you before. I had. Since I had, I initially did not plan to answer your post this time, but rethought that when I saw that you had gotten what I consider an overly optimistic response. I thought you had said you were majoring in something problematic the last time you posted and wanted to see if my recollection was correct. How much a master’s will help depends upon what it is in. I kept clicking until I found out. No bio planned.
</code></pre>
<p>I disagree a bit with Mike. I think your major is a problem BOTH because it’s not in a traditional academic field AND because it “sounds” like a gut. If it’s NOT a gut–I know zilch about advertising majors at FSU–I STILL think that you need to include information in your application to convince an adcom that is probably as unfamiliar with it as I am that it is not equivalent to golf course management. In other words, I think you would have the vocational problem at SOME law schools if your major were finance, but nobody would think that finance was a gut. Lots of folks will think advertising is. It’s serious, not at all intended to be “harsh”, advice, that IMO, you need to deal with this issue in your apps. </p>
<p>IMO, which is just that–my opinion–the management degree will HURT you. Law schools really don’t want to enroll students who are just trying out law. If you got the management degree and went to work for 3-4 years, it would not hurt you. You could say that you wanted to switch careers. However, to go DIRECTLY from a vocational program to law school makes it look, to me at least, that you really don’t know what it is you want to do with your life and are hedging your bets–after all, you’ll be applying before you finish your first semester Law schools aren’t looking to “weed out” anyone and so they tend to want folks who are making a serious commitment. Moreover, should you do worse than a 3.7 in the program, I think your goose will be REALLY cooked. </p>
<p>Again, go talk to the pre-law advisors at FSU. They probably know more about LS admissions than I do. However, should that not be the case–very unlikely, but possible–I would also suggest that you apply to the 7-14 LSs which have vocational components in their UG schools. Those would include UPenn, Georgetown, Uva and Cornell. (There may be more, that’s off the top of my head.) It’s possible that ad coms there have a less anti-vocational “training” attitude than those I’m more familiar with higher up which do not offer undergrad biz, e.g., YHS, Chicago, Columbia. </p>
<p>Good luck with the LSAT.</p>
<p>I too may suggest you concentrate on the T 7-14 law schools, unless you score 172 or better. But my reasoning differs from Jonri.
There seems to be more of an “anti-vocational attitude” on these boards than might actually exist at the UG schools she mentioned.
Last time I checked- seems like you could major in communications ( which probably has coursework in advertising/mass media) and drama at Stanford-- as well as getting a BA in film studies and theatre at Yale.
I am sure there are similar pre-professional majors at Harvard, Princeton and the usual group of “uber elities”. </p>
<p>Also do consider what Blossom said, a year of work experience in advertising, may be more valuable than the MA (IMO).</p>
<p>again- study hard for the LSAT. Good luck.</p>
<p>Duke’s nursing school is graduate-only. I admit to overlooking Penn’s nursing or Cornell’s hotel schools, but I don’t think the broader point is undermined: I’d be surprised if many of Penn’s nurses are intending to go to law or even medical school. I’ve never seen placement statistics for Cornell’s Hotel school, but I’d be surprised if they were on par with the rest of Cornell in terms of percentages. I went to Duke for four years and have never heard of a visual arts major, although I suppose they could exist in a Program II (“Design Your Own Major”) curriculum. Film Studies and Theatre are the academic counterparts to “Stage Acting” and “Media Communications.” I doubt Yale offers these.</p>