4000 mark

<p>This weekend unfortunately marks the loss of 4000 American sons and daughters in Iraq.</p>

<p>When reminded last week about the nation's opposition to the war, our vice president said "So?".</p>

<p>Our President recently had this brilliant message:</p>

<p>"I must say, I'm a little envious. If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed.
It must be exciting for you ... in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks." </p>

<p>Apparently he of little brain forgot he had a chance to serve in Viet Nam and otherwise thinks this war is some photo opp or video game or dime store novel.</p>

<p>But that's how our leaders seem to see it and without comment from the nation while the comments of Reverend Wright are of some importance and focus or otherwise out of line and intolerable.</p>

<p>And John Wayne McCain promises another 100 years in Iraq or is it Iran or is it Al Qaeda in Iran or is it Iraq or wherever, if that's what it takes (don't seem to matter to John as long as we can fight with someone). </p>

<p>4000 and counting.</p>

<p>One of the things I appreciate most about this country is that here we have the opportunity for dueling village idiots. Thank you for bringing me a smile, BW.</p>

<p>'sigh' Four thousand precious lives, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, friends. So so, sad. Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and may perpetual Light shine upon them; may their souls and all souls, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.</p>

<p>re: post #2. this subject makes you smile? That's lovely.</p>

<p>Using the deaths of American soliders to promote your hatred of President Bush is disrespectful to our soldiers and their families.</p>

<p>Time to bring our young men home. Everytime I read the obituary at the end of Stephanopolous's show, I can't hold the tears back.......
The young men dying in Iraq are often barely2-3 years older than my DS. I find myself grieving for each one of them.</p>

<p>re: post #5, this about this waste of human life and the lack of care shown by those in power. That YOU want to use this to defend George Bush is disgusting. </p>

<p>I have the utmost respect for those that defend this nation and don't want to see more lives wasted in this ideological insanity.</p>

<p>Allow me to leave this borrowing a few words from Bob Dylan:</p>

<p>Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks</p>

<p>You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly</p>

<p>Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain</p>

<p>You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud</p>

<p>
[quote]
That YOU want to use this to defend George Bush is disgusting.

[/quote]

Where did I defend George Bush? I didn't defend anyone.</p>

<p>What is disgusting is your exploitation of the lose of American life to support your political views. These are real people who have died serving our country, not political pawns to support your hatred of our President.</p>

<p>Defend George Bush all you want. For your lack of understanding you would have my deepest sympathy, but it is that lack of understanding that has lead to the loss of these 4000 precious lives and 5 years gone and still counting with no end in sight.</p>

<p>But as you keep confusing the issue, when confronted about this loss of life, it is Dick Cheney that said "SO" and it is George Bush that likened it to a romantic adventure. Go tell these 4000 families that. </p>

<p>But, I understand the dogma, it's unpatriotic to question Our President. Excuse me but he is just a man and a very flawed one at that. But, again, this isn't about him as you want to make it.</p>

<p>And my friend while we are at it, it is Our President who has used these lives as political pawns in attacking another sovereign nation without provocation and based on a mountain of lies.</p>

<p>Again, I have the utmost respect for human life and do NOT want to see more taken. If you want to see more taken to defend the honor of Our President and his personal legacy, which is what this is about for him, then go enlist.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Defend George Bush all you want.

[/quote]

I do not defend George Bush and you know it. Your post is offensive.</p>

<p>Mission accompli- whoops!</p>

<p>razorsharp: Give me a break. GWB is a principle cheerleader of the war. The war has resulted in the deaths of many Americans. It follows simply and logically that those who hate the war for its loss of life hate GWB for that same reason, and it is not in any way disrespectful or offensive to state that opinion. Are you saying that the human cost of the war and its direct connection to politics should be ignored because it's "offensive"? If so, you shouldn't talk about US civilian deaths in terrorist attacks in connection to politics either - because that's the exact same thing.</p>

<p>BW. Thanks for the Bob Dylan lines. Sums it up for me.</p>

<p>Lives squandered in the service of greed, malfeasance, deceit, ineptitude, and hubris.</p>

<p>
[quote]
razorsharp: Give me a break

[/quote]

No, I won't. Anyone can critize the President regarding war without using the deaths of Americans as pawns to your argument. How would you feel is it was your family member who was one of the dead and somebody was using his death to pursue a political position? I doubt you would appreciate the trivilization of the lose of life of your relative. It is not respectful to the soliders to incorporate them into your political arguments. You can make every point you want without using them to justify your positions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
GWB is a principle cheerleader of the war.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Cheerleader? Really? You are suggesting the President sits around and cheerleads?</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Oh I see... because nobody ever used the dead on 9/11 to justify various wars and laws? Really? This is the worst argument I've ever heard. Dead Americans are not pawns, they are a legitimate side effect of policies - sometimes, when you do or don't do certain things, Americans will die as a result - and they deserve to be taken into account. That's not disrespectful, it's just realistic. To answer your hypothetical, if somebody used the death of a family member to justify a policy, I wouldn't mind it at all. If a family member's death was relevant to a policy, so be it.</p>

<p>Would you say that instituting the AMBER Alert programs as a result of the death of Amber Hagerman was "disrespectful" and using her for "political arguments"? Or do you only say that when you disagree with what people are arguing?</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Try not to be more obtuse than strictly necessary. It's a metaphor, and that's obvious.</p>

<p>Amber's death was used for political purposes? i thought that her death was the key impetus behind the implementation of a set of notifications issued to the media by the police whenever a child is abducted. that sounds pretty practical, not political.</p>

<p>i think what razorsharp was trying to say is that people are trying to criticize Bush to fit their own political beliefs, and seize upon this recent figure to further ingrain the idea that Bush is bad, without any regard to what the number itself represents.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>That's not what he said. He said the idea of using the deaths of Americans to further a political agenda was blanket disrespectful. I disagree entirely. This isn't a new phenomenon either; the waste of American lives and money has been a central criticism of the way. It's not like everyone just noticed soldiers are dying and are feigning disgust.</p>

<p>For the record, I think the AMBER Alert program is one that is extremely worthy; but the impetus for it was entirely the little girl's death, and so whether you consider it a practical program or not that is an excellent example of a person's death being the cause of a very worthy outcome. It's not disrespect to use a death as a reason to do something if it's relevant; razorsharp would love to think that it is so that he can avoid discussing the issue on its merits, but it just isn't so.</p>

<p>razorsharp...If needless deaths of some of the most courageous men and women in America isn't means for a citizen to question the leadership of their government, I don't know what is.</p>

<p>I don't think anyone on this thread is disrespecting the soldiers or their families. Rather, I think that they are providing a vicarious voice for those who've lost their lives. Do you think these soldiers would want others to continue dieing just because of a misguided president who's too stuborn to acknowledge his mistake? I don't think so.</p>

<p>They sacrificed their lives for a reason, and now it is up to us to speak out for them.</p>

<p>After all, it is not a soldier's duty to question their orders; it is a soldier's duty to fight. It is our duty, as citizens, to hold our government accountable for their actions. If not us, who? If not now, when?</p>

<p>"After all, it is not a soldier's duty to question their orders; it is a soldier's duty to fight."</p>

<p>Under international law well-established after World War II, it is an OBLIGATION on the part of individual soldiers to question their orders if they believe they are illegal. Such law is written into the U.S. Military Code.</p>