4000 mark

<p>^^^^</p>

<p>This war's not illegal; it's just amoral.</p>

<p>Additionally, the Supreme Court would have the power of "judicial review" in this instance, as well as the soldiers having their rights. However, the citizens are the most significant force who can truly stand up for the ethics and the principles of their beliefs if the government is partaking in "legal" action.</p>

<p>In all practical applications (and by the Constitution), whatever the president deems as a legitimate war is considered to be a legal war by the nation as a whole. This is especially the case after he earns widespread approval from the senate...as was the case in Iraq.</p>

<p>Your statement in general is very valid, though. Thanks for the clarification. I simply don't think this applies in Iraq...yet. Plus, it's always hard to peg something the federal government does as "illegal." They've always got the elastic clause in their pockets and can usually change the rules as they please....although, this is sometimes more difficult if the laws in question involve international statutes...i.e. Geneva.</p>

<p>
[quote]
i think what razorsharp was trying to say is that people are trying to criticize Bush to fit their own political beliefs, and seize upon this recent figure to further ingrain the idea that Bush is bad, without any regard to what the number itself represents.

[/quote]

That is precisely what I am saying. Thank you enderkin for summarizing my view so precisely. </p>

<p>I have no problem with a thread discussing the loss of American life and the legitimacy of an American war. I have problem with using those deaths to further the personal poliitial agenda of the OP. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh I see... because nobody ever used the dead on 9/11 to justify various wars and laws?

[/quote]

There is a pretty big difference between saying "we have been attacked and must go to war" as opposed to "we have been attacked and my party should be elected to fight that war". The latter is exploiting an attack to further a politicial agenda. Just as this OP is using the loss of American life to further his political agenda. Pretty distasteful. Just like your comment that the President is a cheerleader, as if the war is some game. If I had made that comment, I would have retracted it once it was pointed out.</p>

<p>"Rather, I think that they are providing a vicarious voice for those who've lost their lives. Do you think these soldiers would want others to continue dieing just because of a misguided president who's too stuborn to acknowledge his mistake? I don't think so.</p>

<p>They sacrificed their lives for a reason, and now it is up to us to speak out for them."</p>

<p>What sanctimonious BS. Do you really think that by criticising the war that you are speaking up for those who fight it? How about we try this little thought experiment: For the next election, we will only let those who have served in the military vote for president. That way, those who have had the most experience with war can express their feelings about it directly. Want to make any bets as to who wins that election?</p>

<p>"Allow me to leave this borrowing a few words from Bob Dylan"</p>

<p>Don't you love it when someone thinks that quoting a musician brings credibility to their argument about foreign policy?</p>

<p>And here is what jym626 wrote:

[quote]
With the latest roadside bombing, the US casualties have reached over 4,000 <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html&lt;/a> Please, enough.

[/quote]

Notice jym626 didn't say "vote for my guy and against the other guy (or something similar)"? I have no problem with jym626's thread.</p>

<p>in honor of the fallen and injured
"Lives in the Balance" - originally about Viet Nam-but applies today</p>

<p>I've been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war</p>

<p>And there's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs</p>

<p>On the radio talk shows and the T.V.
You hear one thing again and again
How the U.S.A. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally can't take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire</p>

<p>There's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we can't even say the names</p>

<p>They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFowNFvmUxw%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFowNFvmUxw&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>oh for more angry and powerful- I posted this AM, without knowing BW posted Mastess of War last night. </p>

<p>Eddie Vedders version - very moving
YouTube</a> - PJ - Masters Of War (live at the Bob Dylan 30th anniversary)</p>

<p>According to my Vietnamese-Russian dictionary, it should be "Vietnam". One people, one word. Sorry to be such a stickler, but I use CC to help me in my advanced ESL course.</p>

<p>"In all practical applications (and by the Constitution), whatever the president deems as a legitimate war is considered to be a legal war by the nation as a whole. This is especially the case after he earns widespread approval from the senate...as was the case in Iraq."</p>

<p>That is probably true. However, the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, passed overwhelmingly by both parties at the urging of Pres. Clinton, and which set the legal framework for the 2002 vote, and specifically calling for the overthrow of the head of state of another nation, was pretty certainly illegal under international law.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>razorsharp, saying "we must go to war" wouldn't be political, if that were all it was. But Republicans have used the implicit threat of further terrorist attacks to be elected every time they had the chance, since 9/11. Do you consider that as despicable as you obviously consider this?</p>

<p>I could see your point about politics, but it's not like the OP said "4000 dead, vote Obama!". The gist of the post was that the OP considers the 4000 dead the responsibility of those who started and continue (or want to continue) the war. I don't see how that is an overly political agenda in any way. Don't want more American soldiers dead -> oppose the war -> oppose those who continue to support it. Given that the loss of American life is the central problem most people have with the war, I'm not sure what you're expecting. We're all just supposed to ignore the fact that people are dying every day when criticizing the war? I don't think so.</p>

<p>Your continued harping on my cheerleader comment is being willfully obtuse, since it is incredibly obvious that it is a metaphor for his continuing and vocal support of the war.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure what you're expecting.

[/quote]

What I expect is that you and the OP be respectful to those who have given their lives for American and for their families. It is really that simple. You are not listening. I could not be any clearer in my postings.</p>

<p>I think the respect of not wanting more people to have to give their lives in the same way is the highest respect one could accord to the dead. But maybe that's just me.</p>

<p>1 of 42 and others, thank you for your understanding. My intent in starting this post was to honor the 4000 that have fallen. To not let this go by and be forgotten. 4000 who made the ultimate sacrifice along with their families. Not unlike the struggle in Viet Nam, the situation is just heart breaking. 5 years and counting with no exit strategy in sight. IT's not simply a political concern it's a human concern. But others will see every thing as politics, so be it.</p>

<p>If only to the few people who post on this board, I wanted this benchmark, if you will, to not go unnoticed; and, to that end was a further reason for my references to cheney and bush for I believe it imperative to see how they have noted this circumstance i.e. with callous disregard and delusional viewpoints of some romantic endeavor (and these were and remain the individuals who have brought this about and continue same, so what could/would be more relevant than their comments on the situation). It is usually the ones who have never fought that are all the more the hawks or that can find some romance in this. I believe just yesterday Cheney further stated that Bush is the one who is suffering the greatest burden here.</p>

<p>As to the lyrics of Bob Dylan, I find them powerful and on point and while certain others here wish to be rude and dissmissive, none of this is directed to them as they don't get it and don't want to get it as their ideology seals their view into some myopic prision.</p>

<p>For certain posters here, why not simply sing-a-long with John McCain in the song he led a crowd in (to the tune of Beach Boys Barbara Ann) "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran". Sure that'll be a big it if he's elected.
In any event, here's some other words from Phil Ochs that strike me of value and in the hope that this killing will stop:</p>

<p>Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain't marchin' anymore </p>

<p>For I've killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain't marchin' anymore </p>

<p>It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all</p>

<p>God, as someone else said, everyone's trying to substitute song lyrics for rational discussion today. Oh, well.</p>

<p>As I said earlier, I'll stick with Kipling, who actually had a good sense of the real world. Phil Ochs never "marched" anywhere other than in self-aggrandizing hippie group-think protests. He can stand with Jackson Browne and defend me from Daryl Hannah, if she attacks. Wusses.</p>

<p>Thanks for proving my point. Wusses is it. No there's some rational discussion.
I seem to recall your post #2 that the topic of 4000 dead brings a smile to your face. </p>

<p>I have a few words for you to look up in your Russian dictionary. I'll send you a PM.</p>

<p>My point in #2, which you have distorted, was that "dueling village idiots" bring a smile to my face. I won't test the TOS by opining as to whether or not you've "proved my point." I am smiling, though</p>

<p>PMs regarding public CC disputes are the last refuge of scoundrels, but I look forward to yours.</p>

<p>I have no dispute with you, and here's some Kipling you might enjoy </p>

<p>To the legion of the lost ones, to the cohort of the damned,
To my brethren in their sorrow overseas,
Sings a gentleman of England cleanly bred, machinely crammed,
And a trooper of the Empress, if you please.
Yea, a trooper of the forces who has run his own six horses,
And faith he went the pace and went it blind,
And the world was more than kin while he held the ready tin,
But to-day the Sergeant’s something less than kind.
We’re poor little lambs who’ve lost our way,
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We’re little black sheep who’ve gone astray,
Baa–aa–aa!
Gentlemen-rankers out on the spree,
Damned from here to Eternity,
God ha’ mercy on such as we,
Baa! Yah! Bah!</p>

<p>Oh, it’s sweet to sweat through stables, sweet to empty kitchen slops,
And it’s sweet to hear the tales the troopers tell,
To dance with blowzy housemaids at the regimental hops
And thrash the cad who says you waltz too well.
Yes, it makes you ****-a-hoop to be “Rider” to your troop,
And branded with a blasted worsted spur,
When you envy, O how keenly, one poor Tommy being cleanly
Who blacks your boots and sometimes calls you “Sir”.</p>

<p>If the home we never write to, and the oaths we never keep,
And all we know most distant and most dear,
Across the snoring barrack-room return to break our sleep,
Can you blame us if we soak ourselves in beer?
When the drunken comrade mutters and the great guard-lantern gutters
And the horror of our fall is written plain,
Every secret, self-revealing on the aching white-washed ceiling,
Do you wonder that we drug ourselves from pain?</p>

<p>We have done with Hope and Honour, we are lost to Love and Truth,
We are dropping down the ladder rung by rung,
And the measure of our torment is the measure of our youth.
God help us, for we knew the worst too young!
Our shame is clean repentance for the crime that brought the sentence,
Our pride it is to know no spur of pride,
And the Curse of Reuben holds us till an alien turf enfolds us
And we die, and none can tell Them where we died.
We’re poor little lambs who’ve lost our way,
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We’re little black sheep who’ve gone astray,
Baa–aa–aa!
Gentlemen-rankers out on the spree,
Damned from here to Eternity,
God ha’ mercy on such as we,
Baa! Yah! Bah!</p>

<p>Bullwinkle-thank you for Pst #40-well said. Your intent is well understood by those who share your views.
And, regarding others.......well, just ignore them, as parents do when their children act out to get negative attention.</p>

<p>Thank you SJCM, much appreciated. I do have one more of Mr. Kipling's works I'd like to share and to thank my friend BTM as while Kipling was of another generation his message was no different than Mr. Dylan or Mr. Ochs or those that know the mindlessness of war:</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.</p>

<p>Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!</p>

<p>You have a long way to go before you start throwing Kipling quotations around with any authority, antlered one. He was truly the soldiers' poet.</p>