<p>For anyone still interested in the original topic: </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html[/url]”>http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html</a></p>
<p>They will NOT be forgotten.</p>
<p>Good link, Celtic. They will not be forgotten. </p>
<p>Neither would they want to be dishonored as some sort of “milepost” for the anti-war Left. Which is what the “original topic” was about.</p>
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<p>No, your intent was to bash the President and Vice-President.</p>
<p>Here is your original post:</p>
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<p>4000 and counting? That is how you honor our fallen heros?</p>
<p>Strange how you mention “John Wayne McCain” but you don’t mention Hillary Clinton who also voted for the war.</p>
<p>You say far better than I could, Razor.</p>
<p>Thank you btm. Glad I am not alone in cyberspace.</p>
<p>Well, I’ve lost the post where Kipling’s “Tommy” was quoted, but given the situation in the world today, it should be required reading for everyone. (The “White Man’s Burden” poem should be posted on the thread about Obama’s pastor!).</p>
<p>And while I hesitate to even mention the following poem in the same post as Kipling, here’s an original I wrote about the same time that Baghdad fell. Even tho’ we’ve continued to struggle daily in Iraq, and the sacrifices have continued to grow, the sentiments are the same. It’s an all-volunteer military we have, and we owe them a debt greater than every freedom we enjoy, every minute of our safe & comfortable lives, and everything our country stands for. </p>
<p>We can never repay that debt (just like someone else who laid down His life for us), but we CAN honor those sacrifices by trying our best to stand up for the ideals for which they died & try our hardest to be worthy of the sacrifice (“Saving Private Ryan” anyone? 
) - that is all we can do.</p>
<p>Defenders of Freedom</p>
<p>Defenders of Freedom, thats what we are!
No battlefield too dangerous, no region too far.
Well march thru the desert with sand in our boots,
To search out a tyrant, take aim and shoot.
Well crawl thru the jungle, hide out in the woods,
Sleep in a foxhole, go for days without food.
Well fire our weapons, drop bombs if we must,
Unless evil surrenders, its Baghdad or Bust!</p>
<p>From the tortured and downtrodden we hear the call;
Well hammer away till dictatorships fall.
We want the needy to know that theyre not alone,
Even tho some of us wont return home.
Well lay down our lives so you can be free,
Leave our loved ones behind for your liberty.</p>
<p>From Saratoga to Somalia, well sacrifice,
From Shiloh to Saigon, well pay the price;
From Omaha Beach to the South China Sea,
Wherever were needed, thats where well be!
Youll know when you see the Red, White & Blue,
Well defend your freedom, because thats what we do!
April 2003</p>
<p>“It’s an all-volunteer military we have, and we owe them a debt greater than every freedom we enjoy, every minute of our safe & comfortable lives, and everything our country stands for.”</p>
<p>We owe them no debt whatsoever. As you said, they volunteered, and were paid to do a job. Very, very sadly, many of their lives and more of their bodies were squandered in service of the greed, malfeasance, ineptitude, and hubris of their leaders, who systematically lied to them, to their families, and to the nation to make believe that what they were doing was sacrifice for some higher ideal, when in fact it was – and remains – nothing of the kind.</p>
<p>The only sacrifice that is being made is to the god Moloch.</p>
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Well said, BZ. Great poem, too. Thank you.</p>
<p>Just saw mini’s post. I’m amazed. When did men stop understanding their role as defenders?</p>
<p>I’d rather be in a shelter with a well-trained boy or girl scout in an emergency!</p>
<p>Sorry, but there isn’t a soldier in Iraq for the past 5 years who was sent there for the purpose of defending me, and every member of the Moloch-worshipping Administration knows it.</p>
<p>The point stands, Mini. I’d rather have a Girl Scout troop with me in a crisis. Just call me a real feminist.</p>
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<p>This is the kind of stuff that makes your posts sound like jokes. The real issue here is future policy, not past - while the war vote issue may be relevant for HRC vs. Obama, between HRC and McCain what’s relevant is who wants to continue the war, and that is obviously McCain. The day HRC says she could see America in Iraq for another 100 years you tell me, and I’ll consider your point germane.</p>
<p>Well live and learn, bullwinkle!
I didn’t know the Yale Wiffenpoof song came from Kipling!! Learn new things every day!</p>
<p>As Razorsharp pointed out in about post #29 or so, my first attempt to discuss this very topic didn’t contain a discussion of political leanings. No wonder it died on the vine! That doesn’t, however, explain the disappearance of the Hillary-Obama JibJab disco (youtube) video, which was aired on one of the morning news shows this morning (Good Morning America, I believe). Diane Sawyer was in stitches. <a href=“http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q_KL8jwDxyY&feature=related[/url]”>http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q_KL8jwDxyY&feature=related</a> But I digress.</p>
<p>My H was in ROTC in college, was active duty military for 7 yrs and active reserves for 5. He is still in the (inactive) reserves. He used to vote Republican. No more.</p>
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42, apparently you are only one who hears a joke. By criticizing McCain but not Clinton for 4000 death (the past by the way; not the future as you reference), bullwinkle is interjecting his political views. That’s the point I am making. bullwinkle is not honoring our fallen troops, he is honoring his personal political agenda. Do you get it now?</p>
<p>Since you do not understand my posts, possibly you should read jym626’s posts. Here is one:
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<p>Moderator’s note:</p>
<p>This thread is being reopened after we had to lock it and clean it up. We know the temperature gets heated sometimes in the political threads, but it is against our Terms of Service to insult or discuss other members in the forums. If you see a post that you think violates the rules please click the Report Problem Post link to flag it for the Moderating Staff. Posting jabs at others or discussing moderation activities in the forums is not the right way to handle disagreements or frustration.</p>
<p>I appreciate that there are those that want to honor the dead by adding to those numbers. Those who have actually served in combat or otherwise suffered loss typically do not want to see another brother or sister fall.</p>
<p>I’d also add that is hard, very hard to separate out from this those “Masters of War” who have brought this all about and whose response to death and destruction has been “So”. </p>
<p>Such “leaders” come easily to that response as they are the first to run and hide behind those that they send to fight and die and then refer to such loss as “collateral damage” and other euphenisms and forbid the showing of caskets or combat footage so the public remains distanced from the fact that these are human beings, sons, daughters, husbands, wives and children being lost forever.</p>
<p>As far as specifically “bashing” Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld that is hardly necessary at this point in history. Their conduct speaks for itself. That 97% of our casualties have taken place AFTER the declaration of “mission accomplished” further speaks for itself.</p>
<p>I will post it again and again and again and again that the only intent of this was to not let this passage of life go unnoticed. Allowing this to go unnoticed is precisely what the Administration and its apologists want so the killing and destruction can continue.</p>
<p>4000 lost and still counting with no end and no exit strategy in sight but instead blind aimless agression to just add more as the justification.</p>
<p>i don’t think that the 50+ posts in this thread have gotten anywhere since the argument began…</p>
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<p>Wow, is what I thought when I read this. I’d never thought of it that way, despite being aware of all the lies and manipulations we’ve been exposed to. Thanks for enlightening me. </p>
<p>It does make me sad to know that we personally know young men who have been sent overseas (more than one tour) thinking they were protecting me.</p>
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<p>bullwinkle may have a personal agenda, but in this thread his agenda has been explicitly the end of the war.</p>
<p>As Bush and Cheney were the ones who initially proposed and pushed the war, continue to support it and lead it with no intent of stopping, and since McCain also explicitly wants to continue it, I see it as entirely relevant for him to criticize them if he feels the dead are a bad thing. The most that could be said of HRC is that she was dumb. As for the troops being in the past, you’re right - but the key issue is whether or not we continue to allow such deaths. The troops that already died aren’t coming back; votes from the past cant’t be changed; all that matters now is what is done going forward. bullwinkle thinks the White House is wrong on the issue. That isn’t political chess, that’s an honest opinion.</p>
<p>“Sorry, but there isn’t a soldier in Iraq for the past 5 years who was sent there for the purpose of defending me” </p>
<p>“It does make me sad to know that we personally know young men who have been sent overseas (more than one tour) thinking they were protecting me.”</p>
<p>Of course, it could be that those who fight are more in tune with what the real risks to the US were and are than those who sit comfortably in their living rooms completely oblivious to external threats - people who have become so accustomed to a life of peace and security that they take it for granted.</p>