777 Jet crashes at SFO

[Wolverine86]

<p>emerald…It depends on whether or not there is an equipment malfunction of some sort. Most equipment failures would cause some type of accompanying warning, either a light or an audible alarm. There are also usually audible or visual warnings at various altitudes above ground level (AGL) as an aircraft descends towards the runway, but the pilots need to verify their position relative to the runway to make sure they’re at the appropriate altitude.</p>

<p>As busdriver said, until we know more information it’s pure speculation what happened. Should the pilots have been able to look outside and tell they were too low given the distance from the runway? Yes…but we don’t know if there were any distractions in the cockpit that may have diverted their attention. Those types of things will become clearer as the cockpit voice recorder and black boxes are analyzed.</p>

<p>Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) is something the US airline industry developed after an Eastern Airlines crash in the Florida Everglades in the 1970’s. The aircraft had a simple problem (burned out landing gear light indicator bulb) but the cockpit crew all fixated on trying to analyze the problem and didn’t realize the autopilot had disengaged and the aircraft slowly descended until it hit the ground. CRM teaches pilots how to best manage cockpit activities, particularly in instances of aircraft malfunctions. Non-US air carriers may or may not train their pilots similarly.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Oh this can’t be good

South Korean and NTSB investigators will jointly question Lee Kang-gook, the pilot who was sitting in the captain’s seat of Asiana Flight 214, on Monday, Choi Jeong-ho, the head of South Korean’s Aviation Policy Bureau, said.
Lee had 43 hours of experience flying the B777-200, he said.

[Pilot</a> in San Francisco plane crash had 43 hours experience in jet (VIDEO) | KDVR.com](<a href=“http://kdvr.com/2013/07/06/plane-crashes-while-landing-at-san-francisco-international-airport/]Pilot”>Asiana Flight 214 was flying slower than recommended during landing | FOX31 Denver)</p>

[jym626]

<p>And now they are saying one of the girls who died on the Tarmac was hit or run over by a rescue vehicle? That’s horrible. It’s all so tragic.</p>

<p>** Thinking back on the limited experience with the plane, I guess the best way to log hours is to fly, so the pilot was gaining experience with this plane.</p>

[Sikorsky]

<p>Questioning the pilot (if he survived the crash) is SOP.</p>

<p>Forty-three hours in this type of aircraft isn’t a lot, though.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Now they are saying it was his first time landing at SFO. Bus driver- is this a particularly difficult airport? Anything particularly challenging about it?</p>

<p>And yes- realize the pilots will all be interviewed as no doubt will the crew. Was trying to quote the key issue of the limited flying experience of the pilot with this particular plane.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>I think it is a tricky airport, because of the water?
There also was confusion becuase of construction.

The instrument landing system, or ILS, uses radio signals to create a three-dimensional “glide slope” for planes to follow so they aren’t too high, too low or too far to the right or left. The ILS for runway 28 left, where the plane crashed, had been shut down since June and the beginning of the runway was moved 300 feet to the west to accommodate construction at the airport, according to pilots who use the airport.

[Pilots</a> faced challenges landing at San Francisco International Airport (+video) | Deseret News](<a href=“http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765633493/FAA-Airliner-crashes-on-landing-in-San-Francisco.html]Pilots”>http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765633493/FAA-Airliner-crashes-on-landing-in-San-Francisco.html)</p>

[dragonmom]

<p>Those of you who are pilots please correct me, but isnt 43 hours on a cross-pacific equipment pretty much an inexperienced person at the helm? Playing Monday Mornig Quarterback, can you see the senior flight crew saying " OK, mid-day, great weather, take her on in…". Because that’s how pilots gain experience? Perfect time for the new person to take control for the first time.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>That would be two round trips or so.
I sure wouldn’t let my kid take it out by themselves that soon, of course they had co pilots though.</p>

[busdriver11]

<p>Yes, limited experience in equipment type can definitely be a factor. Someone can be a very experienced aviator, but when you go to a new airplane, you have zero hours on that equipment…there’s no way around that. They give plenty of training in the simulator, but it is always different in the airplane. You always get initial operating experience in the airplane with an instructor, but at some point, you are considered qualified and on your own. I have never started out in a new airplane as a captain. It was always important to me to have plenty of experience as a co-pilot first, and then move over to the left seat, though that is not required. I personally REALLY want to know what I’m doing, before I am the boss.</p>

<p>SFO can be challenging, but not always. At night when it’s quiet, and you get an ILS, it’s very easy. During the day, it has very heavy traffic, they have these funky visuals that they want you to fly sometimes, plus there is a lot going on during the day with radio chatter and other aircraft. You have to be on your toes. Without a glideslope, particularly without a VASI, it would be more challenging than usual. But to most any pilot, at some point it would be pretty obvious that you were low, extremely obvious that you were slow, and it should have been recognized by someone in the cockpit (unless there were other factors involved). Even if you have little experience in type, you would see something bad happening, unless it happened very quickly. I know a number of people who fly the 777, and apparently it is a very sweet, responsive airplane to fly. They love it.</p>

<p>We also don’t know for sure who was flying the airplane. If the captain had only 43 hours of experience in type, he may have only made a very limited number of approaches and landings in the actual aircraft. If your flights are all 10 hour flights, that’s not many landings, besides the ones you have done in the simulator and on your initial line experience. It is a FAR regulation as a captain, that if you have less than 100 hours in type, you have to make the landing…you can’t allow the co-pilot to do it. So I’m assuming that either the captain was making the landing, or he had an instructor in the right seat who was doing it (if they follow the same rules as we do in the US). If they follow the same rules as us, the captain couldn’t say to the co-pilot, “Hey, this might be challenging, so you have the airplane.” In the first place, that would be crushing to your ego to give it to the first officer because you think he could do a better job than you, plus it wouldn’t even be legal (unless there was something like a cracked windshield on the left side, an operational reason).</p>

[busdriver11]

<p>I just read the latest report, and it said that the airline claimed that the captain was “in training” on the 777, with the co-pilot assisting him. That has got to be badly phrased. You don’t have just a co-pilot assisting you, if you are “in training.” That guy sitting in the right seat would be an instructor, an evaluator, another captain, if this was his initial checkout. This would be an extremely experienced pilot in the 777, who would be giving instruction, and ready to take the airplane at any moment. He would actually be the pilot in command, not the guy sitting in the left seat, who is a student. In that case, either pilot could have been flying. Though it appears that the guy in the left seat was flying. Supposedly.</p>

<p>If he was already a captain on that airplane, with purely a co-pilot in the right seat, he is no longer in training (even if he’s new).</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>Re: <a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube;

<p>That video also has a bit at the end where Gladwell says that the US emphasizes ability or aptitude too much in education, and emphasizes effort or hard work too little.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Another article i [Lee</a> Kang-kook, Pilot Of Crashed Plane, Was Making His Maiden Flight To San Francisco (VIDEO/PHOTOS)](<a href=“Lee Kang-kook, Pilot Of Crashed Plane, Was Making His Maiden Flight To San Francisco (VIDEO/PHOTOS) | HuffPost San Francisco”>Lee Kang-kook, Pilot Of Crashed Plane, Was Making His Maiden Flight To San Francisco (VIDEO/PHOTOS) | HuffPost San Francisco)

“He has a lot of experience and previously flown to San Francisco on different planes including the B747… and he was assisted by another pilot who has more experience with the 777,” the spokeswoman said.</p>

<p>Lee, who started his career at Asiana as an intern in 1994, has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet.</p>

<p>Co-pilot Lee Jeong-min, who has 3,220 hours of flying experience with the Boeing 777 and a total of 12,387 hours of flying experience, was helping Lee Kang-kook in the landing, the spokeswoman said.

They did say

…the pilot in charge of landing the Boeing 777 that crash-landed at San Francisco’s airport on Saturday was training for the long-range plane and that it was his first flight to the airport with the jet.</p>

<p>“It was Lee Kang-kook’s maiden flight to the airport with the jet… He was in training. Even a veteran gets training (for a new jet),” a spokeswoman for Asiana Airlines said on Monday.

</p>

[GMTplus7]

<p>“San Francisco 777 Crash: Why Did So Many Passengers Evacuate With Bags?”
<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2013/07/07/san-francisco-777-crash-why-did-so-many-passengers-evacuate-with-bags/[/url]”>http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2013/07/07/san-francisco-777-crash-why-did-so-many-passengers-evacuate-with-bags/&lt;/a&gt;

*so many photographs from the crash of Asiana Flight 214 at San Francisco International Airport of people carrying out bags, including roll aboards that must have come out of the overhead luggage bins. At least one man interviewed in the New York Times indicated that he grabbed his bags and then his child. In that order.

</p>

[busdriver11]

<p>^^I understand why some would grab their bags. The accident happened quickly, many people were probably in shock. Some did it out of routine, some because they saw others doing it. Perhaps they didn’t quite understand the gravity of getting out ASAP. Others are thinking about not having their wallet, passport and medication in a foreign country. I always keep a small bag by my feet, and it’s likely I’d grab it before going out the emergency exit, all my important stuff is there, and it wouldn’t take extra time…even though I know better. Can’t imagine opening up the overhead bin, though.</p>

<p>So my latest guess on this accident, if it turns out that there were no mechanical/wake turbulence/shear/environmental factors…and if it’s purely attributable to pilot error, would be something like this. Coming in fast and high, throttles back, trying to make the approach. Autothrottles disconnect at some point, whether unintentional or intentional, the pilot is so fixated on making the approach work that he merely forgets to push up the power and is looking outside, leaving airspeed out of his crosscheck. Everyone else is looking outside too, or there is some other reason they’re distracted. I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone could get that slow, though.</p>

<p>Fatigue is a killer, and can make you very stupid. You’d probably be better off flying with someone who is drunk, as opposed to exhausted.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>I can’t imagine opening a bin either - you don’t know what will fall on your head or those around you. I carry all of the important stuff in a Scott E Vest though. I carry a disposable laptop on trips too. I’d probably lose some other electronics but you don’t know how fast any leaking fuel is going to burn or blow up and a cart could cause a pileup of passengers resulting in fatalities.</p>

[Iglooo]

<p>In one report I heard, the overhead bins opened and bags tumbled out when it crashed. Whether it’s true or false, no idea.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>An analyst on CNN said passengers also grabbed their bags on the plane that landed in the Hudson River.</p>

[eyemamom]

<p>Did anyone ever read Outliers? They talk about asian airline plane crashes. Apparently one thing is I think he says 7 anomalies happen before every plane crash. So it just wasn’t the plane being to low or slow, there was a series of events that led to it.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@busdriver11

Others are thinking about not having their wallet, passport and medication in a foreign country. I always keep a small bag by my feet, and it’s likely I’d grab it before going out the emergency exit, all my important stuff is there, and it wouldn’t take extra time…even though I know better. Can’t imagine opening up the overhead bin, though.

</p>

<p>Why not keep all of that important stuff in your pockets (in a Scott-E-Vest type of clothing if you need a lot of pockets to keep it all) to reduce the risk of loss or theft (whether or not there is an evacuation)?</p>

[westcoastmomof2]

<p>I thought immediately of Outliers when I heard about the crash, because of the Korean Airlines chapter. Malcolm Gladwell postulates that because Korean airline pilots (specifically co-pilots) are culturally inclined to be deferential and respectful to their “superiors”, they can be reticent to point out human errors before it’s too late. Of course, I don’t know if this was the case here, but Gladwell’s book was the first thing that came to mind. A tragedy no matter what the cause…</p>